A Christian response to my arguments on Revelations and my refutation to it.

Part one

One Christian on the chat program paltalk has decided to respond to small part of my article on what the Bible says about Jesus. This Christian is also a friend of Sam Shamoun so therefore I decided to post this on the site for interested readers since I feel it is a good dialogue and the Christian speaker is good enough to defend his faith.

The article he is responding to can be found here:

https://www.answering-christianity.com/rebuttaltosamshamoun24.htm

He Wrote

Hey ,

Hi this is Dk-man7 from Paltalk. You got cut off while we were discussing Surah 4:157 and its implications. Hopefully as you said you will get a mic in the next few days so we can discuss these issues further. In the mean time let me educate you on Revelation and its doctrine that Jesus is the Lord God Almighty.

As you gave me a link to your website on whether Revelation teaches Jesus is God, I will respond to that and also reveal to you key points you have missed, proving Revelation teaches Jesus is The Lord God Almighty.

Jesus said I AM THE ALPHA AND OMEGA THE FIRST AND LAST

Did he really say that? Let us quote each alpha omega verse and you will see for yourself and not a single one of them is Jesus speaking:

you inform your readers here that "you will see for yourself and not a single one of them is Jesus speaking". Well I certainly did not see for myself so obviously this is incorrect or you are referring to specific readers i.e. muslims which you should mention.

My Response

Indeed I showed to both parties that Jesus never said he is the alpha and omega, anyone can see it for themselves.

He Wrote

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Both times were the I am alpha and omega is used, is not said by Jesus but by THE God as the text clearly shows. Christians would like to say read on which shows that it is indeed Jesus, so let us read on and see:

Revelation 1:11 today alot of scholars dispute, so i'll leave that. However Revelation 1:8 quite clearly from its immediate context is referring to Jesus. Revelation 7 will demonstrate:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds,

The OT makes this same claim about the Son of Man:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.

Jesus also makes this claim about himself:

Mark 14:61 But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" Mark14:62 And Jesus said, "I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."

More proof:

Rev 1:8(continued) and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Jesus fullfilled this pierced prophecy:

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. John 19:35 He who saw it has borne witness--his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth--that you also may believe. John 19:36 For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken." John 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "They will look on him whom they have pierced."

The immediate context has given us the identity of the speaker of Revelation 1:8 , The Son of Man coming in the clouds, the pierced one, who is the Lord God Almighty.

, Do you have any proof that it was The Father or The Holy Spirit or someone else that was pierced?

My Response

Well you haven’t really showed it is Jesus. All you have showed is verses 1-7 are about Jesus. Let me post the passages again:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

As you can see once verse 8 comes it is no longer Jesus speaking. Jesus is the speaker from verses 1-7. It is very obvious when you read the two that verse 8 is a different speaker. In fact Jesus is ending his statement in verse 7 by saying Amen. As I said, it is not good English, you have to break it down to see who is talking, there are up to 4 speakers and they are all speaking so it does confusing and you can mix the words of the speakers such as you have mixed the words of THE God with the words of Jesus. So no one is denying verses 1-7 is about Jesus which is basically what you further proved. You did not prove verse 8 is about Jesus.

Also note what the earlier passages said:

So basically John heard the testimony of Jesus which basically means he heard his words. The passages after ward tell us what Jesus said:

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Those are the words of Jesus that John heard. Note he always says AMEN afterwards, that is how you can tell when it is no longer Jesus. Such in revelations verse 8 there is no Amen after the statement of the alpha and omega. That is one sign that verse is not about Jesus, the fact there is no Amen afterwards.

Secondly something huge that proves it is not Jesus is this statement that is made in verse 8:

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty

Note the alpha omega is the one who is and which was and is to come. I bet you anything you will be thinking that is Jesus and that I am crazy for trying to use this for proof. Well why don’t we read the earlier passages again which show us that Jesus is NOT the one who is and which was and is to come, take note:

: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 AND FROM JESUS CHRIST, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

So as you could see for yourself, the one who is and was and is to come is not Jesus. Lets break it down:

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come

This is THE God talking not Jesus, because note now what Jesus says means he is not the one speaking:

5 AND FROM JESUS CHRIST

AND FROM JESUS meaning that the first speaker was not Jesus or it would not say AND Jesus. The fact it says AND Jesus shows the one who said I was and is and to come was not Jesus! It cannot get anymore clearer than that! So my fri Jesus was not speaking in Revelations 8, if you say he was then your just being bias. Again here it is:

AND from Jesus, meaning Jesus is a different person than the one who said I was and is to come. So this is crystal clear proof that Revelations 8 is not Jesus since the speaker of Revelations 8 is the one who is, the one that was, and the one who will come and that my friend is not Jesus because there was a distinction made between the two.

So as to your question:

, Do you have any proof that it was The Father or The Holy Spirit or someone else that was pierced?

I have proof and just gave it to you that Revelations 1:8 is not Jesus, here it is again:

So there you go, it says AND Jesus meaning Jesus is a different person than the one who said I was and is and to come. So my argument still stands, Revelations 1:8 was not Jesus, Revelations 1:5 proves it.

He Wrote

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death

Christians will see since John tuned back to see who was speaking, and he saw Jesus then this would mean it was Jesus speaking.

Accurate conclussion, judging from the language of Revelation

That does not work neither, John heard a voice as a trumpet behind him saying ' I am the Alpha and Omega' the first and last. John simply turned around to see who was speaking to him, when he turned around he had a vision, what he saw in this vision does not mean what he sees in the vision is what was talking to him. God not Jesus told John I am the Alpha and Omega and to WRITE what thou sees, so God already told John to make sure what he sees, because God knew John would turn around to see what was speaking to him. As soon as John turns he sees this vision, the man he sees in the vision is assumed to be Jesus, however so Jesus is not the one who made the Alpha and omega statement, they are two different situations.

1- God tells John I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and last, and be sure to write what you see.

2- John turns around and sees a vision, he sees Jesus. So even reading on it is still not Jesus saying I am the Alpha and Omega.

You seem mostly to be concerned with the "Alpha and Omega" statement. So you make an assertion that the person has changed and of course that John did not visually see Jesus saying "I am the Alpha and Omega" and wowzer you have a new interpretation...

My Response

Yes, my point is the one John sees is not the one who makes the statement. It is your interpretation that the one who John sees is the one who says I am the alpha and omega and I disagree. So again, God says I am the alpha and omega, God tells John to make sure to what he sees when he turns around, so John turns around and then sees what he sees. If Jesus had made the statement then why wouldn’t he just tell John to record what he sees when John looks at Jesus, why is John told to record what he sees before he turns and not after?

He Wrote

Except for the fact you have no evidence the speaker changed, only assertions because you don't want Jesus to be the one saying it. Now I don't really care about Revelation 1:11, so let me just go along with your argument and see if it works for you.

My Response

Well actually I did give good reasons to why it was not Jesus speaking, read it again, you have no proof that it is Jesus, in fact your argument is very weak, you assume that since John saw Jesus then it must mean Jesus was the one talking. That is the false assumption.

He Wrote

Notice what the speaker says:

Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,Rev 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

The NT teaches that Jesus died and was ressurected forevermore. The speaker says "I died, and behold I am alive forevermore". Not only this but who claims to be the "first and the last"? None other than YHVH God:

Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

We don't need Revelation 1:11. Revelation 1:17;18 already teach us from the Words of the mouth of The Son of Man. He is the First and the Last, the living one.

My Response

Well let us see if it does because I already address this in the article because I know Christians will always bring it up. J

He Wrote

Now Christians will be shouting that Jesus told John I am the first and last and I was dead and I am alive evermore. That is Jesus without a doubt.

However so let us read Revelations 1:1:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him

So from the first verse see that Jesus cannot be God. God gave Jesus the revelation, does God give God a revelation?

My Response

See I told you I brought it up. ;)

He Wrote

Well heres the underlying premise of the rest of your argument. Unfortunately this argument comes from a lack of understanding of christian theology. The bible teaches God the Word became a man. When you become a man you have the capacity to die and ALSO to recieve revelation from God. When Jesus was ressurected he did not cease to be a Man. He now has a ressurected, glorified body.

My Response

Here is the lack of understanding of your own Christian theology. You state God became man right? But God never stopped being God even when he became man! So hence what you said changes nothing, God became a man, but that does not mean he is not God anymore. So that is a weak response and my statement still stands. Revelations 1:1 show Jesus cannot be God just by the language used in it. This shows how illogical Christian theology really is, that God still receives revelations from God, and God dies! You say it is the man, well even when God became man he never stopped being God right?

He Wrote

It has already been shown that Jesus is not God in this article, and this supports the case even further,

The article proves no such thing. As for this latest argument. This has been corrected above.

My Response

Well you haven’t responded to my article, the article I am referring to is what the Bible says about Jesus. So hence you cannot say it proves no such thing. As for the latest argument, it has not been corrected at all.

He Wrote

so hence if Jesus said I am the first and the last to signify that he is God then this would be blasphemy! So hence Jesus commits blasphemy if he is trying to imply he is God.

One can study the entire scripture of the OT and NT. Only God makes such a claim. Hence, Jesus is claiming to be God. As for your assertion that its blasphemous for Jesus to tell the truth, I don't care, The Jews said the same thing:

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."

My Response

Now the reason I said if Jesus meant he is God is because of what I wrote in the entire article proving that Jesus is not God. Here is the article:

https://www.answering-christianity.com/rebuttaltosamshamoun24.htm

You are only responding to one section of it, which is the last one. In the other sections of the article I proved that Jesus cannot be God, so hence if he did claim to be God in this passage then it is indeed blasphemy, it is blasphemy because Jesus showed he cannot be God, and said he is not God. So read the article.

He Wrote

I don’t think he is, so I don’t believe when Jesus said I am the first and last, that he meant he was God.

Can you explain what he mean't by it then, since he doesn't mean he is God? I mentioned above only God makes the claim: "I am the first and the last". So you are welcome to prove someone else makes that claim in the bible who is not God Almighty.

My Response

I have no idea of what he meant by it if he wasn’t saying it to say he is God. That doesn’t matter, what does matter is that if he said it meaning he is God then this is a blasphemy and contradicts his own words when he says he is not God and proves he cannot be God so hence you have a contradiction in your Bible. Again read the article.

He Wrote

Secondly Jesus said he was dead, God never dies to be dead, God is never dead PERIOD. So it would seem funny if Jesus is trying to claim he is God and also say he died when death is something God does not go through. So this does not prove Jesus is God, not at all.

Jesus is God manifested as a Man however. And as a Man, he can die AND recieve revelation. Here this argument drops aswell.

My Response

How many Jesus’ are there? You as Christians say there is one Jesus, if we take what you are saying then we now have 2 Jesus’. One man, one God. However so you say Jesus is both man and God. So if Jesus went to the bathroom, it means God went. If he cried, it means God cried because at the end of the day JESUS IS GOD according to you. So if Jesus dies then God dies. Or does Jesus have split personalities?

He Wrote

Now instead of believing what Revelation teaches you are trying to refute it by appealing to the humanity of Christ which infact proves you are in agreement with me that Revelation teaches Jesus is God Almighty

My Response

No, I am not in agreement that Revelations teaches he is God. As I said I believe if this is real authentic verses, then Jesus did not mean he is God. I proved he is not God in the rest of the article, so if he meant he is God he contradicted himself and committed blasphemy, so my friend you should not want Revelations to teach Jesus is God because its not a good thing. It just shows your Bible contradicts it self that Revelations is a lie. The other reason to why I say this passage cannot mean Jesus is God is because God does not die.