Mary:  Fornicate with you "in my mother's bed" [1].  Are virgin Mary's mother and bed also members of the barfinity ?


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The Romans had to fake his crucifixion due to Passover issues: [1]

The sections of this article are:

1-  Children must reach ashuddah (full strength and growth) and adulthood.
2-  Children reaching "the age of marriage" in Noble Verse 4:6.
3-  Female-children becoming "fataaya" (young ladies) become ready to be "wed" (4:25).

      (a)-  "atfaal" اطفال (babies and young children) are not allowed to get married (4:25, 24:59).

4-  After ASHUDDAH, Wisdom and Knowledge from Allah Almighty.

      (a)-  Babies and young children, who have not yet reached ASHUDDAH, don't even have Wisdom and Knowledge developed yet.

  
5-  What about Prophet Muhammad's marriage with 9-year old Aisha?

      (a)-  But still, how is Aisha's age in agreement with the Noble Quran above?

6-  What about Noble Verse 65:4?  Does it not allow marriage with children?  (A conversation between me and a Christian)
7-  Prophet Muhammad's advise to "O young grown-ups (shabab)" (يا معشر الشباب) for marriage.
8-  Conclusion.

1-  Children must reach ashuddah (full strength and growth) and adulthood:

Because Allah Almighty created every human to be unique and different, our physical bodies vary.  Yet, in regards to the minimum physical requirements or age for marriage, for both males and females, Allah Almighty had laid it out beautifully for us in the Holy Quran.

Ashuddah in Arabic is derived from the root word shadeed, which means mighty and powerful.  Allah Almighty referred to iron as shadeed (having mighty power) in Noble Verse 57:25.  Let us look at what Allah Almighty Said regarding children reaching their full strength and growth:

So here we clearly and indisputably see Allah Almighty distinguishing between a helpless child and a growing human who reaches his full strength.

2-  Children reaching the "age of marriage" in Noble Verse 4:6:

So here the adult who is keeping the orphan's inheritance from his/her deceased parents is required by Allah Almighty to never release the money until:

1-  The orphan, boy or girl, reaches the age of marriage.

2-  The adult keeper must see a "sound judgment" and enough maturity and responsibility in him/her in order for the former to be allowed to release the money to the orphan.

3-  Female-children becoming fataaya (young ladies) become ready to be "wed":

A girl starts out being a child طفلة.  This is further proven in Noble Verses 22:5 and 40:67 above (طفلا child).  Then she becomes a fataat فتاة , which is what فتياتكم  (your young ladies) is derived from in Noble Verse 4:25.

Clearly, Allah Almighty never allowed marriage with a طفلة child!

Furthermore, Allah Almighty Said:

الاطفال (children) is a plural, and it is derived from طفل (child), which is singular.  الحلم, which is translated as "come of age", literally means when the child knows about sex.  For boys, it also means that when he experiences his first ejaculation either in his sleep or through masturbation.

So clearly again, Allah Almighty differentiated between the children and the teenagers.

4-  After ASHUDDAH, Wisdom and Knowledge from Allah Almighty:

Babies and young children, who have not yet reached ASHUDDAH, don't even have Wisdom and Knowledge developed yet.  Let us look at what comes after ASHUDDAH:

So here again, wisdom and knowledge, which are essential for survival in life, start coming after the child reaches his/her age of strength and growth to a point where he/she can now start looking towards becoming independent and take responsibility for him/herself.  Now of course, the best age for having the best Wisdom is the age of 40:

"We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents: In pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is (a period of) thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says, 'O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favour which Thou has bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam.'  (The Noble Quran, 46:15)"

Please visit:  The Mercy of Allah Almighty.

And of course, there are always those who are cursed by Allah Almighty and never receive neither Guidance nor Wisdom:

"Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).  (The Noble Quran, 2:18)"

"The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat- herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.  (The Noble Quran, 2:171)"

"It is he whom God guides, that is on true Guidance; but he whom He leaves astray - for such wilt thou find no protector besides Him. On the Day of Judgment We shall gather, them together, prone on their faces, blind, dumb, and deaf: their abode will be Hell: every time it shows abatement, We shall increase from them the fierceness of the Fire.  (The Noble Quran, 17:97)"

5-  What about Prophet Muhammad's marriage with 9-year old Aisha?

Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is said to have been 53 years old when he married our mother in Islam Aisha, who is said to have been 6 years old before consummation of marriage, and 9 years old after the consummation.  This shouldn't be surprising because:

1-  It was culturally acceptable back then and even today in also non-Muslim countries, and it was Aisha's parents who married her to our Prophet.

2-  Throughout the Bible, girls that young and even younger were married off and even raped.  The Bible was OK with all of this and praised it.

3-  Mary was 12 when she married 99-year old Joseph.

Please visit:  Prophet Muhammad's marriage with Aisha for more details and proofs.

Also visit: 3-year old girls were ordered to be raped by Moses in the Bible (Luke 2:52: GOD forgave Jesus' sins and was "charitable" with him).

But still, how is Aisha's age in agreement with the Noble Quran above?

Many practices and laws were abrogated by the Holy Quran.  It is quite possible that the Holy Quran mentioned these Laws after the marriage of Prophet Muhammad to our mother in Islam, Aisha, peace be upon him and her.  This shouldn't be a surprise because the marriage happened during the early days of Islam.  So certainly, when one wishes to either marry his daughter to a man or when a man wishes to marry a young girl, then in both cases, the father and/or the husband must take into consideration the Noble Verses that I mentioned above, because these are Laws that Allah Almighty had put.

By the way, there is new evidence that suggests that Aisha was much older than 9 years old when she married our Prophet [2].  But be as it may, I don't care about our mother Aisha's age.  It is not an Islamic Law.  The Noble Verses above are Law, and all fathers and mothers must fear Allah Almighty when they decide to marry off their young daughters.  They should wait until their girls reach:

1-  FULL STRENGTH.
2-  "The age of marriage".
3-  Have developed some Wisdom and Knowledge to give them the minimum mental and psychological requirements to handle.....     MARRIAGE!!  And all of the burdens that come with it.

6-  What about Noble Verse 65:4?  Does it not allow marriage with children?

Also visit: https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/12/quran-654-the-child-marriage-claim/.  (sent by brother Albarra, may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him)

The following is a brief discussion between me and a Christian named Sepher Shalom:

  
He wrote:

Osama,

Since you have very clearly quoted numerous verses from the Quran, and thus appealed to it as your source for rules about marriage [as I would expect any good Muslim to do], please comment on the following that you may have overlooked before:

65:4 - Hilali-Khan trans. - "And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allâh and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him."

"Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl at this age but it is permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur’an has held as permissible." (Maududi vol.5 p.620)

Considering all of the above information, Osama, I have one simple question for you and wonder if you will answer: Do you believe it is your right as a Muslim to marry a prepubescent girl?

My response:

Sepher,

Here are what Noble Verses 65:1,4 say in English and Arabic:

(The Name of the Surah (Chapter) is "THE DIVORCE")

The Noble Verses are clearly speaking about divorce of women, and there are three categories of those women:

1-  Women who are very old.

2-  Women who have not had their monthly period at the time of the divorce.

3-  Women who are pregnant at the time of the divorce.

For point #2, it doesn't necessarily have to mean that the woman was a young girl.  To me, it is clearly talking about the wife not having her period yet when the divorce happened.  Women on average have 10 days of menstruation each month.  Point #2 is speaking about the 20 other days.

As to my opinion, the scholars' interpretations are sometimes partial.  They do not cover the latter Laws that came to abrogate the current Laws that they're commenting on.  This misleads the reader.

As to the menstruation and the minimum age for marriage, I am not sure if the girl having her first period is the line that determines when she can get married or not.  The ample Holy Verses that I quoted in this article are clear about:

1-  INFANTS
2-  BABIES
3-  AND CHILDREN
4- And even incapable teenagers who are not fully grown up based on what the current life requires

not being allowed to get married.  The Holy Quran spells it out, and I challenge anyone to disprove it (Muslim or none).

Take care,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Also visit: https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/12/quran-654-the-child-marriage-claim/.

He wrote:

Osama said: "For point #2, it doesn't necessarily have to mean that the woman was a young girl. To me, it is clearly talking about the wife not having her period yet when the divorce happened."Maududi said: ""Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl at this age but it is permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur’an has held as permissible." (Maududi vol.5 p.620)

Al-Jalalayn said: "And [as for] those of your women who (read allā’ī or allā’i in both instances) no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months — both cases apply to other than those whose spouses have died; for these [latter] their period is prescribed in the verse: they shall wait by themselves for four months and ten [days] [Q. 2:234]. "Ibn Abbas said: "(And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months."Al Wahidi said: "Abu Ishaq al-Muqri’ informed us> Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah ibn Hamdun> Makki ibn ‘Abdan> Abu’l-Azhar> Asbat ibn Muhammad> Mutarrif> Abu ‘Uthman ‘Amr ibn Salim who said: “When the waiting period for divorced and widowed women was mentioned in Surah al-Baqarah, Ubayy ibn Ka‘b said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, some women of Medina are saying: there are other women who have not been mentioned!’ He asked him: ‘And who are they?’ He said: ‘Those who are too young [such that they have not started menstruating yet], those who are too old [whose menstruation has stopped] and those who are pregnant’. And so this verse (And for such of your women as despair of menstruation…) was revealed”Ibn Kathir said: "Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. This is the meaning of His saying;(and for those who have no courses...)"Let's see.... Al-Jalalayn, Ibn Abbas, Maududi, Al-Wahidi, Ibn Kathir, all agree that this Ayah is talking about the waiting period for girls taken as wives that do not yet menstruate.

Osama, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say confidently that you are not correct :-D

My response:

Sepher,

Like I said, I am not sure if the girl having her first period makes her legitimate for marriage or not. It is not clearly defined in Islam.  Some girls do get their first periods later than others (See also Isaiah 1:9-17: Yahweh called Israel Sodom, because it spreads evil and is unjust).  So the period is not the issue.  It is rather the physical and mental capabilities of the girl that Allah Almighty clearly talked about in the Holy Quran. I've provided TONS OF NOBLE VERSES and points that prove this in this article.  So even if the girl gets her first period, she still may not be qualified for marriage.

As to the tafaseer (interpretations) that you provided, they remain limited to their authors.  They are not part of the Noble Quran.  They are only interpretations and personal opinions of the Mufassireen (interpreters), and the Hadiths therein are either:

1-  Fabrications and lies that were put on the mouths of the companions and the Prophet as many false hadiths were exposed.  Notice the long chain of narrators that your source presented:

2-  Abrogated Hadiths, because the Quran always abrogates the Hadith and Sunnah (ways of the Prophet) when there is a conflict.

Also visit:  Abrogations in the Bible (Luke 2:52: GOD forgave Jesus' sins and was "charitable" with him).

Another important point that I did also address in the article is that my Noble Verses seem to have abrogated the Hadiths (Sayings of Prophet Muhammad) and Sunnah (Ways of Prophet Muhammad) that you have just mentioned, Sepher.  Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, married our Mother in Islam, Aisha, during the EARLY DAYS OF ISLAM.  The Noble Verses that I gave probably later.  So even if the interpretations that you gave are valid, they're still abrogated.

Again, the point from the Noble Verses in this article is that Allah Almighty made it CRYSTAL CLEAR that babies (الاطفال) are different from teenagers who reach their (حلم) puberty.  And all of these are linked to the reaching of the "age of marriage" حتى اذا بلغوا النكاح.  See Noble Verse 4:6 and all of the Noble Verses in the article.

  
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

He wrote:

Osama said: "Similar to what brother Yahya said, how about showing even half of criticism that you show against Islam towards the Bible and Christianity? We can start with the following link:

https://www.answering-christianity.com/age3.htm  where non-virgin girls and all boys and men were all commanded to be killed. Plus take all of the virgins girls for sexual pleasure."

First of all, I have spent a great deal of time being "critical" of the Bible (Luke 2:52: GOD forgave Jesus' sins and was "charitable" with him). I was an agnostic/borderline atheist for a number of years. Secondly, as a Nazarene Jew I am critical of a number of issues with mainstream Christianity and some of the inconsistencies therein.

Thirdly, it your sexually obsessed mind that has created the interpretation of the verses you mention. There is nothing in that passage that suggests the girls are for sexual pleasure. One not need to look any further than this blog in order to ascertain that you have perverse leanings in your thinking. Fourthly, as usual you liberally season your post with off-topic attacks in order to divert the subject of discussion, which I am not interested in entertaining.

Now as to your question about Biblical marriage, the parable given in Ezekiel 16 makes it very clear that full physical maturity is the appropriate age for marriage. Not only that, the parable can only be functional because it presupposes that the audience was easily familiar with proper customs of marriage age. The same is illustrated in Song of Songs ch. 8 [as Hogan already mentioned]. And again, Biblical marriage condemns the practice of giving a girl in marriage and then waiting for her to mature, like Muhammad did with Aisha. Rather, the marriage is to take place when the wife is physically mature. Consummation and the legal aspect of taking in marriage occur together. Marriage is where a man and woman leave their parents and become echad in the great mystery of physical union. This is not properly expressed by the duality of a "contract" and then consummation some years later. And as I mentioned previously, in Biblical Hebraic culture giving a young virgin to a much older man is considered a shameful act, so Muhammad and Aisha's parents are seen as shameful on that account. On top of that, the Brit Chadasha ("New Testament") commands us to abide by the secular laws where we live. Hence, the proper Halachic ruling for me is that I can marry a woman who is 18. What you fail to understand, Osama, is that when Yeshua and His Talmidim gave us Halacha, it was given into a world that was run by a foreign secular government. Not only that, but Yeshua [and the testimony of the Tanach prophets] reveals in no uncertain terms that the reign of the Gentiles will persist until Mashiyach return to earth and establishes His Kingdom. Much of what you see as "Christians having no law or guidance" is because the Messiah was directing us in a manner by which we could be salt spread amongst all the governments of the earth, to proclaim the Gospel without becoming some sort of political revolutionary force seeking to overthrow secular governments [Gee, does anyone here know an example of a religion that is designed to overthrow and supplant existing governments?].

The main issue is, however, that you are either accidentally or intentionally mischaracterizing my position. I am not attempting to prove the Biblical standard is superior to the Islamic [although I believe it is]. Rather, I am simply demonstrating that a Biblical view of marriage not only condemns the marriage of Muhammad to Aisha, but it condemns the whole Sunnah practice of Muslim men copying his behavior in this matter today. I assert this position because it seems quite clear that you have this idea in your head that there is no limitation on age based on the Bible (Luke 2:52: GOD forgave Jesus' sins and was "charitable" with him).

As has also been shown by your own Islamic scholars, the Islamic Sunnah tradition allows for marriage before puberty. I have sufficiently demonstrated that a number of the greatest and most respected early Islamic exegetes disagree with your position and support mine. You have stated your Tafseer of the Ayah I posted, I provided Tafseers of; Al Jalalayn, Ibn Abbas, Maududi, and Ibn Kathir whom all disagree with you and agree with me.

When it comes to Islam I trust their scholarship over and above that of Osama Abdallah any day.

My response:

"Thirdly, it your sexually obsessed mind that has created the interpretation of the verses you mention."

My response:

Quoting your Bible's commands about killing all of the boys and all of the non-virgin girls and killing all of the men, and keeping the virgin girls for sexual pleasure does not make me sexually obsessed. Let's keep the worthless cheap shots out and stick to facts:

https://www.answering-christianity.com/age3.htm

"Now as to your question about Biblical marriage, the parable given in Ezekiel 16 makes it very clear that full physical maturity is the appropriate age for marriage. Not only that, the parable can only be functional because it presupposes that the audience was easily familiar with proper customs of marriage age. The same is illustrated in Song of Songs ch. 8 [as Hogan already mentioned]."

My response:

Ezekiel 16 is talking about Israel becoming a PROSTITUTE to idolatry!

Song of Songs 8:1,2,8
1 If only you were to me like a brother, who was nursed at my mother's breasts! Then, if I found you outside, I would kiss you, and no one would despise me.
2 I would lead you and bring you to my mother's house— she who has taught me. I would give you spiced wine to drink, the nectar of my pomegranates.
8 We have a young sister, and her breasts are not yet grown. What shall we do for our sister for the day she is spoken for?

For verses 1 and 2, I have exposed their propagation of INCESTUOUS FANTASIES and pornography at:  https://www.answering-christianity.com/incestuous_fantasies.htm.

As to verse 8, not only it doesn't say anything and it further exposes your desperation, but it is also not a Law.

Another important point to note is that both Ezekiel and Song of Songs CAME 1000S OF YEARS AFTER THE MOSAIC LAW. So what law are you talking about?

"And as I mentioned previously, in Biblical Hebraic culture giving a young virgin to a much older man is considered a shameful act, so Muhammad and Aisha's parents are seen as shameful on that account."

My response:

That couldn't be any more absurd and false.  In the Mosaic Law and throughout the Bible, A FATHER CAN EVEN SELL HIS DAUGHTER AS A SLAVE GIRL to any man, even men as old as her grandfather:

Exodus 21:7-11
7. "If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
8. "If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her.
9. "If he designates her for his son [Note: "his son" means that the master is either her father's age or even much older!], he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters.
10. "If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.
11. "If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

So you have shown nothing nor proven anything other than being desperate and faulty:  https://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm.

"On top of that, the Brit Chadasha ("New Testament") commands us to abide by the secular laws where we live. Hence, the proper Halachic ruling for me is that I can marry a woman who is 18."

My response:

Not only does Christianity bow down to man's wickedness and evilness, which is what we see everyday from moral decadence in the Christian societies, but Paul too did the very same thing:  https://www.answering-christianity.com/biblical_christians_and_open_sexuality.htm.

Also visit:  X-Rated Pornography in the Bible (Luke 2:52: GOD forgave Jesus' sins and was "charitable" with him).

95% of Americans had premarital sex according to a new study!

Why are Christians so notorious in sinning throughout the world? What is the real secret behind it?

Latest Study: 1 in 4 Christian teen girls has an STD - More Christian profanity exposed world-wide!

"The main issue is, however, that you are either accidentally or intentionally mischaracterizing my position. I am not attempting to prove the Biblical standard is superior to the Islamic [although I believe it is]."

My response:

Is selling your daughter as a slave girl, and raping virgin girls and killing all of the non-virgin girls, boys and men morally higher to you?

"As has also been shown by your own Islamic scholars, the Islamic Sunnah tradition allows for marriage before puberty. I have sufficiently demonstrated that a number of the greatest and most respected early Islamic exegetes disagree with your position and support mine. You have stated your Tafseer of the Ayah I posted, I provided Tafseers of; Al Jalalayn, Ibn Abbas, Maududi, and Ibn Kathir whom all disagree with you and agree with me.

When it comes to Islam I trust their scholarship over and above that of Osama Abdallah any day."

My response:

A scholar could comment all he wants on a Hadith. But if he doesn't take into account the development of newer Laws that came to replace it, then his explanation is partial.

Please also visit:  Abrogations in the Bible (Luke 2:52: GOD forgave Jesus' sins and was "charitable" with him).

  
I'll repeat it again and again:

Prophet Muhammad's, peace be upon him, marriage with our Mother Aisha, peace be upon her, happened during the early days of Islam. The Noble Verses that I provided were probably revealed later, and the Quran always abrogates the Hadiths and Sunnah when there is a conflict between them.  The Noble Verses clearly state:

1- INFANTS
2- BABIES
3- CHILDREN
4- And even incapable teenagers who are not fully grown up based on what the current life requires

ARE NOT PERMITTED TO MARRY.

Also visit: https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/12/quran-654-the-child-marriage-claim/.

Again and again, the point from the Noble Verses in this article is that Allah Almighty made it CRYSTAL CLEAR that babies (الاطفال) are different from teenagers who reach their (حلم) puberty.  And all of these are linked to the reaching of the "age of marriage" حتى اذا بلغوا النكاح.  See Noble Verse 4:6 and all of the Noble Verses in the article.

  
Marriage is not a joke in Islam!  It is very sacred; so sacred that even the mature male adult is forbidden from marrying multiple women if he knows that he won't be able to be just with them or if the judge sees that he won't be fair and that he has evil intentions that are displeasing to Allah Almighty and are violating to the Islamic Law (Ex: Marrying with the fixed intention of divorce prior to the marriage).  Islam does not permit carelessness and irresponsibility in marriage, because through marriage the Muslim society's new generation is made.  And marriage itself is not an easy burden for an individual to bear.  Plus, it is a lifetime commitment.  And as you know, polygamy is allowed in Islam, but for some cases, it is not.  And the same thing with any of the children that I just mentioned above.  You can't just marry them off!  They're too helpless!  Sin would then be upon you if you do, because you would then be both careless and irresponsible, along with perhaps being a brainless robot who proclaims to be following the "Sunnah" of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, while violating the Commands of Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran.

Also, it is important to mention that there is strong evidence that proves that our Mother Aisha, may Allah Almighty be pleased with her, was much older than 9 when she married our Prophet!  I personally favor this evidence NOT BECAUSE I am ashamed.  No, I am not ashamed of anything my Beloved and Blessed Prophet did.  But since Aisha is recorded to have narrated 1000s of Hadiths on the Prophet of Islam, peace be upon him, then this clearly suggests to me that the lady was far older than any child or teenager!  Or, she simply was much older than her actual age.  Either way:

1-  Her marriage to the Prophet happened during the early days of Islam.

2-  Her marriage does not justify marrying off helpless children today, unless one chooses to be a brainless robot and a violator of the Direct Commands of Allah Almighty in the ample Noble Verses that I provided in this article.

3-  Even if she was 9, she was still married to the Prophet!  The Prophet was known to have Blessing Powers and Miracles that were given to him by Allah Almighty.  Assuming that Aisha was 9, her overwhelming ability to remember and narrate 1000s of the Prophet's Sayings testifies to this.  Children today, on the other hand, would be married off to ordinary people.  So it is still not fair at all to the helpless children, nor is it allowed in the ample Noble Verses that I gave in this article.

Please visit:  The Overwhelming Scientific Miracles of the Holy Quran.

  
The fact that you continue to avoid addressing the Noble Verses that I provided shows clearly that you have lost this debate.

Another important point to mention is that:  The overwhelming majority of all Muslims along with many many Muslim scholars, world-wide, all agree that marriage with any of the children that I just mentioned above is forbidden in Islam.  And again, the Noble Verses that I gave in this article clearly prove that our position is absolutely right.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

"Faktb" also writes:

Osama,

I hear you loud and clear. Thank you for the updates.

How old do you think Aisha really was?

Even IF she was 18, Muhammad was still 53 years old when they married. That's STILL 35 YEARS!

But it is overwhelmingly obvious that Aisha was 9 years old. As you know this is SAHEEH, SAHEEH, SAHEEH. I and any reasonable Muslim accept the words of Bukhari, Muslim, and others, and so should you.

My response:

Note:  SAHEEH means authentic in Arabic.

Faktb,

Bukhari is not the Holy Quran.  Like the Bible, it contains falsehood in it.  It also contains ample and ample Truth in it.  But there are absurdities in Bukhari that clearly prove that the volume does contains falsehood in it.  For example, the narration about the she-monkey who committed adultery and the monkeys were stoning her and the guy who narrated it said that he helped them in stoning her.  This is not a Hadith.  It is a narration by someone; a story by him, and he must've BEEN DRUNK when he said it!  Yet, we find it in Bukhari.

Similarly, the narrations about Aisha being 6 and then 9 are narrations and not Hadiths (Sayings of Prophet Muhammad).  Therefore, there is always a possibility of them being false.  And even if they were Hadiths, the possibility is still there.

Anyway, in this article I have addressed both possibilities and still proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that:

1- INFANTS
2- BABIES
3- CHILDREN
4- Even teenagers who are not fully grown up yet and aren't ready to take on life

ARE NOT PERMITTED TO MARRY.

Osama Abdallah
www.answering-christianity.com

Also visit: https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/12/quran-654-the-child-marriage-claim/.

Sepher wrote:

Osama said: ”The Noble Quran is crystal clear about it. Girls who have not become "fatayat" (young ladies) and ready to be "wed" (4:25) and have not "reached the age of marriage" (4:6) to enable them to take on life are not permitted to get married. Other Noble Verses that clearly prohibit for infants and babies and little boys and girls to get married are: 22:5, 40:67, 6:152, 17:34, 46:15, 4:6, 4:25, 24:59, 12:22, 28:14.”

Well Osama, since the topic we are disputing is the proper age of marriage for females in Islam, let’s unpack these verses that you claim are some sort of undeniable proof and see what they say. I hope David nor Nabeel nor any of the other blog readers are off-put by the number of posts this will require.

4:6 “Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.”

As you can plainly see this verse is about orphans. It mentions the “age of marriage” but it does not describe when this is, or give any criteria for determining how to know this age has been reached. Here is the really funny thing. This verse is about MALES not females, and how the male orphans are to be given wealth. Al Wahidi tells exactly why this verse was revealed in his Tafseer:

“(Prove orphans…) [4:6]. This was revealed about Thabit ibn Rifa‘ah and his uncle. Rifa‘ah died when his son Thabit was very young. The uncle of Thabit went to the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, and said: “The son of my brother is an orphan under my care, what is lawful for me from his wealth? And when should I give him back his wealth?” And so Allah, exalted is He, revealed this verse.” - Tafseer of Al Wahidi

There is nothing at all about females nor the rules about when they can be given in marriage in this verse. Both the plain reading of the verse and Tafseer prove this.

My response:

This has got to be the most absurd and ridiculous argument you have presented thus far!  First of all, Al-Wahidi never said that this verse is about males only.  Maybe one of the reasons why this Noble Verse came down was to address a certain issue for a certain male among other social reasons.  But this, by no means, limits the Noble Verse to males only.

The Arabic word اليتامى is plural, and even the least speakers of Arabic would tell you that it includes both males and females.  The fact that we are even arguing this point proves that you are indeed bankrupt and refuted!

Furthermore, the "reach the age of marriage" here is not limited to the orphans alone.  The orphans are the case that the Noble Verse is addressing, but anyone with the least brain would easily see that "reach the age of marriage" is speaking about the age that when the orphans reach.

Moreover, what you utterly missed from the point in Noble Verse 4:6 above is:

1-  When the orphans finally reach the age of marriage.

2-  And you see good judgment in them.

3-  Then release to them their inheritance that you have kept.

Does this sound like a Noble Verse that allows for

1- INFANTS
2- BABIES
3- CHILDREN
4- And even teenagers who are not fully grown up yet and aren't ready to take on life

to be allowed to get married?  To a bankrupted and desperate person like you, yes it does.

Does this Noble Verse sound like it referred to any of the children that I just mentioned when It Said "reach the age of marriage"?  Again, to a bankrupted and desperate person like you, yes it does.

Also visit: https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/12/quran-654-the-child-marriage-claim/.

He wrote:

4:25 “If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls (fatayatikum فتياتكم) from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”

This verse gives Muslim permission to take wives from amongst their slaves, or the slaves of other Muslims [but it seems to restrict them to “believing” slaves]. Not one single Tafseer I could find says anything about this verse describing age or any physical trait that determines when a female becomes legal for marriage. Here is what Ibn Abbas had to say:

“(And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess) who are in the hands of the believers (Luke 2:52: GOD forgave Jesus' sins and was "charitable" with him). (Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith) He knows best that your hearts are firm in faith. (Ye (proceed) one from another) You are all the children of Adam; it is also said that this means: some of you follow the religion of others; and it is also said that this means: you are strengthened by one another; (so wed them) marry the maids (by permission of their folk) their owners, (and give unto them) the maids (their portions) their dowry (in kindness) on top of the price given to the prostitute for providing sex,….” [Ibn Abbas]

Once again, this verse has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

My response:

Again, like your bankrupted arguments above, the Arabic word for "girls" is فتياتكم .  In the first section above, I provided the Noble Verses where Allah Almighty talked about when we are children (طفلا) , and then when we grow up and reach our strength (يبلغ اشده) .  The fact that Allah Almighty Commanded in Noble Verse 4:25 to marry from the (فتيا), young ladies or teenage girls, who are much older than the (طفلا) , clearly proves that Allah Almighty clearly and indesputably Commanded the Muslims to marry at the very least (فتيا) from the females, and not children  (طفلا).

This again and again proves that:

1- INFANTS
2- BABIES
3- CHILDREN
4- Even teenagers who are not fully grown up yet and aren't ready to take on life

ARE NOT PERMITTED TO MARRY, especially when we read this Noble Verse in the Light of the other ample Noble Verses that I gave in this article.  Point refuted.
  

Again, the point from the Noble Verses in this article is that Allah Almighty again made it CRYSTAL CLEAR that babies (الاطفال) are different from teenagers who reach their (حلم) puberty.  And all of these are linked to the reaching of the "age of marriage" حتى اذا بلغوا النكاح.  See Noble Verse 4:6 and all of the Noble Verses in the article, above.  Point again soundly refuted.

He wrote:

22:5 “O mankind! if ye are in doubt concerning the Resurrection, then lo! We have created you from dust, then from a drop of seed, then from a clot, then from a little lump of flesh shapely and shapeless, that We may make (it) clean for you. And We cause what We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed time, and afterward We bring you forth as infants (طفلا), then (give you growth) that ye attain your full strength. And among you there is he who dieth (young), and among you there is he who is brought back to the most abject time of life, so that, after knowledge, he knoweth naught. And thou (Muhammad) seest the earth barren, but when We send down water thereon, it doth thrill and swell and put forth every lovely kind (of growth).”

This verse is about the formation of a human, growth into adulthood, and death. I don’t even think anyone needs to see a Tafseer to know that this verse has nothing to do with marriage age for females in Islam. Nevertheless, here is what Al Jalalayn had to say:

“O mankind, in other words, [O] people of Mecca, if you are in doubt about the Resurrection, then lo! [consider that] We have created you, that is, [We have created] your origin — Adam — from dust then, We created his progeny, from a drop, a sperm-drop, then from a clot, congealed blood, then from a [little] lump of flesh (mudgha), a piece of flesh, the size of what one would [be able to] chew (mā yumdagh), ….then We bring you forth, from the bellies of your mothers, as infants, and then, We extend your life, that you may come of age (ashuddakum), that is to say, [your] prime and strength, which is [that age] between thirty and forty years. And there are some of you who are taken away, by death…”

40:67 “He it is Who created you from dust, then from a drop (of seed) then from a clot, then bringeth you forth as a child (طفلا), then (ordaineth) that ye attain full strength and afterward that ye become old men though some among you die before and that ye reach an appointed term, that haply ye may understand.”

This verse is basically a restating of 22:5. It’s about formation of a human, growth into adulthood, and death. The Tafseer is also pretty much a repetition. Here it is:

“He it is Who created you from dust, by having created your father Adam from it, then from a drop [of sperm], then from a blood-clot, congealed blood, then He brings you forth as infants, then, He sustains you, that you may come of age, [until you have attained] your full strength — [this being] from the age of thirty to forty — then that you may become aged (read shuyūkhan or shiyūkhan)— though there are some of you who die earlier….” [Al Jalalayn]

My response:

I understand that the Holy Verses are about the formation of man in the womb.  But what you entirely and miserably missed is that the (طفلا), infants, was never used in the Holy Quran for allowing marriage.  I used it to bring out and distinguish between the Key Words in the Holy Verses that I gave above and to further prove to the reader that the Noble Quran does indeed distinguish between the different "children".  Today, an 18-year old minus 1 day is still a child and is the same as a 1-day old child!  The Noble Quran rejects this faulty and unjust equality in age and status.

Again, as to Noble Verse 24:59, Allah Almighty again made it CRYSTAL CLEAR that babies (الاطفال) are different from teenagers who reach their (حلم), puberty.  And all of these are linked to the reaching of the "age of marriage " حتى اذا بلغوا النكاح.  See Noble Verse 4:6 and all of the Noble Verses in the article, above.  Point again soundly refuted.

He wrote:

6:152 “And approach not the wealth of the orphan save with that which is better; till he reach maturity (يبلغ اشده). Give full measure and full weight, in justice. We task not any soul beyond its scope. And if ye give your word, do justice thereunto, even though it be (against) a kinsman; and fulfil the covenant of Allah. This He commandeth you that haply ye may remember.”

This verse is a near repetition of 4:6, and is about orphans and monetary endowments. It has nothing to do with the age in which a female can be given in marriage. On top of that, this verse is about male orphans.

Tafseer Ibn Abbas – “(And approach not the wealth of the orphan save with that which is better) through protecting it and making it grow; (till HE reach maturity) legal age and shows righteousness in HIS character…..”

Tafseer Al Jalalayn – “And that you do not approach the property of the orphan save with that, approach, which is fairer, namely, the one wherein lie HIS best interests, until HE is of age…”

My response:

The Noble Verse is not talking about males only.  The Tafseers that you quoted above are not saying that the Noble Verse is about males only.  The reference to the orphan (singular) is done in a masculine form.  Similar references by the 1000s exist virtually in all of earth's languages, including English!  Here are few examples:

1-  When I want to speak to someone, I usually greet him first. 

2-  When you speak to someone on the phone, speak to him with respect!

HIM in these examples refers to both males and females.  Only a bankrupted and desperate person like you would play this silly game.

Point again soundly refuted.

He wrote:

46:15 “And We have commended unto man (ووصينا الانسان) kindness toward parents. His mother beareth him with reluctance, and bringeth him forth with reluctance, and the bearing of him and the weaning of him is thirty months, till, when he attaineth full strength and reacheth forty years, he saith: My Lord! Arouse me that I may give thanks for the favor wherewith Thou hast favored me and my parents, and that I may do right acceptable unto Thee. And be gracious unto me In the matter of my seed. Lo! I have turned unto Thee repentant, and lo! I am of those who surrender (unto Thee).”

This verse is about a MALE growing to be 40 years of age and reaching “full strength”. It has nothing to do with women or marriage age. This is nonsense Osama.

Tafseer Al Jalalayn – “His mother carries him in travail, and gives birth to him in travail, that is to say, with suffering; and his gestation and his weaning, from suckling, take thirty months, six months being the minimum period for gestation, the remainder being the maximum period of suckling; it is also said that, regardless of whether she bore him for six or nine months, she should suckle him for the remainder. So that (hattā is a [particle of] purpose for an implied sentence, that is to say, wa-‘āsha hattā, ‘and he lived on so that …’) when he is mature, namely, at his prime in terms of his strength, intellect and reasoning, the minimum [age] for which is thirty or thirty three years, and reaches forty years, that is, exactly [forty years], which is the maximum for [attaining] maturity”

Tafseer Ibn Abbas – “(And We have commended unto man) We have commanded 'Abd al-Rahman Ibn Abi Bakr in the Qur'an (kindness towards parents) Abu Bakr Ibn Abi Quhafah and his wife. (His mother beareth him) in her womb (with reluctance) with hardship, (and bringeth him forth with reluctance) and delivers him in hardship, (and the bearing of him) in the womb of his mother (and the weaning of him is thirty months, till, when he attaineth full strength) between the age of 18 to the age of 30 (and reacheth forty years, he saith) Abu Bakr says:…”

While it seem Al Jalalayn and Ibn Abbas have a different way of explaining the years that “full strength” means, they are in complete agreement that it is about a MAN. Another verse bites the dust Osama.

24:59 “And when the children (الاطفال) among you come to puberty (حلم) then let them ask leave even as those before them used to ask it. Thus Allah maketh clear His revelations for you. Allah is knower, Wise.”

Nothing about marriage here either. This is getting old Osama. At this point I will let Ibn Abbas and Al Jalalayn refute you yet again:

Tafseer Ibn Abbas – “Allah then mentioned only older children and slaves, saying: (And when the children among you come to puberty) whether they are your own children or your slaves (then let them ask leave) at all times (even as those before them) of their brothers who were mentioned before (used to ask it. Thus Allah maketh clear His revelations) His commands and prohibitions as He explained this (for you. Allah is knower) He knows what is good for you, (Wise) He decreed that older people must ask permission at all times.”

Tafseer Al Jalalayn – “And when the children among you, O free men, reach puberty, let them seek permission, at all times, just as those, [now] older free men, sought permission before them. So God clarifies His signs for you, and God is Knower, Wise.”

12:22 “And when he reached his prime We gave him wisdom and knowledge. Thus We reward the good.”

Another verse about a MAN. This one says he gets wisdom and knowledge in his “prime”. No marriage here. How about some Tafseer:

Tafseer Al Jalalayn – “Send HIM forth with us tomorrow, to the desert, to frolic and play (read [first person plural] narta‘ wa-nal‘ab, ‘that we might frolic and play’, or [third person plural] yarta‘ wa-yal‘ab, ‘that he might frolic and play’), in other words, so that we might be spirited and roam freely. Surely we shall take good care of HIM’.”

Interesting discussion of Arabic grammar, but nothing about women or marriage here either.

28:14 “And when HE reached his full strength and was ripe, We gave HIM wisdom and knowledge. Thus do We reward the good.”

It’s a restating of 12:22, and once again no mention of marriage, and certain nothing about the age of which females can be married.

Tafseer Al Jalalayn – “And when HE came of age, namely, at 30 or 33, and [then] was [fully] mature, that is, when HE reached the age of 40, We gave him judgement, wisdom, and knowledge, comprehension of religious matters before he was sent as a prophet. And so, just as We rewarded HIM, do We reward those are virtuous, to their own souls.”

Once again this is all about a MAN. Osama, I wish I could resurrect Ibn Abbas, Al Jalalayn, Al Wahidi, etc, and just let them refute you. It would cut out the middle-man.

So once again, we are left with either the Tafseer of Osama Abdallah, or the Tafseer of the greatest scholars in the history of Islam that all refute Osama. It seems that you have just as much trouble making sense out of your Quran as you do the Bible, Osama. Maybe this is some sort of condition? Or maybe you know you are being dishonest? One thing that is very clear is that Osama has a hard time telling when his god is talking about men or women.

My response:

Again and again, as to Noble Verse 24:59, Allah Almighty again made it CRYSTAL CLEAR that babies (الاطفال) are different from teenagers who reach their (حلم), puberty.  And all of these are linked to the reaching of the "age of marriage " حتى اذا بلغوا النكاح.  See Noble Verse 4:6 and all of the Noble Verses in the article, above.  Point again soundly refuted.

  
As to man only, wrong again.  Man (الانسان) refers to mankind.  Even the least speakers of Arabic would tell you that.  الانسان is again masuculine, and it includes both the males and females.  Have you not ever heard in your entire life about masculine and feminine forms in languages?

  
"One thing that is very clear is that Osama has a hard time telling when his god is talking about men or women."
  
As to my "god", Allah Almighty is the GOD Almighty of Abraham, and the people of Israel and the Christians and the entire Universe.  Read your Bible and the recent archeological discoveries that further prove this from your own Bible (Luke 2:52: GOD forgave Jesus' sins and was "charitable" with him).  You probably have extreme ignorance of your Bible too.
  

Also visit: https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/12/quran-654-the-child-marriage-claim/.

7-  Prophet Muhammad's advise to "O young grown-ups (shabab)" (يا معشر الشباب) for marriage:

Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him said:

Narrated 'Alqama: "While I was with Abdullah, 'Uthman met him at Mina and said, "O Abu 'Abdur-Rahman ! I have something to say to you." So both of them went aside and 'Uthman said, "O Abu 'Abdur-Rah. man! Shall we marry you to a virgin who will make you remember your past days?" When 'Abdullah felt that he was not in need of that, he beckoned me (to join him) saying, "O 'Alqama!" Then I heard him saying (in reply to 'Uthman), "As you have said that, (I tell you that) the Prophet once said to us, 'O young people (يا معشر الشباب)! Whoever among you is able to marry, should marry, and whoever is not able to marry, is recommended to fast, as fasting diminishes his sexual power.  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, BOOK 62: Wedlock, Marriage (Nikaah), Number 3)"

شباب is a plural of both شاب, which means "young man" or a "young grown-up man", and شابة, which means a "young woman" or a "young grown-up woman".  شباب is a masculine plural, and in Arabic, these plurals include both the males and females as long as both the males and females are included.  They could also refer to only males, but they could never refer to only females.  شابات would be the females-only plural of شابة. 

Since شباب could definitely be referring to both the males and the females from among the Muslims, and since the context is about marriage, then obviously, the Prophet, peace be upon him, addressed both the men and women, even if the context seems to be pointing mainly at the men (fast to diminish your sexual power).  It doesn't exclude the women and the requirement of them being also able to marry, because marriage is a serious lifetime commitment.

Notice how the Prophet of Islam, peace be upon him, talked with the young grown-ups and not to children.  A young grown-up can not marry unless he/she is ready:

1. Physically
2. Mentally
3. Emotionally
4. Psychologically
5. Financially (especially for the men)
6. Socially

Notice how the Prophet said: "Whoever among you is able to marry,".  He only urged those who are able to marry to go ahead and get married as soon as possible, so that they would fulfill their lives, desires, and remove all loneliness and voids in their lives.  Also, in the areas of harvesting, herding cattle, constantly moving for new supplies of water (in the desert), marriage brings a big advantage to both the man and female, because they often work together to harvest, take care of the cattle (sheeps, cows, camels, goats, etc...), and other livestock such as chickens, and protect each others (See also Isaiah 1:9-17: Yahweh called Israel Sodom, because it spreads evil and is unjust).  Plus, they strengthen the society by bringing more children.  Waiting for too long to get married, as we do today, was pointless back then, and is also pointless today in these areas and conditions.

8-  Conclusion:

We have clearly seen in the preceding Noble Verses that Allah Almighty:

1-  Distinguished between helpless children and older ones, such as teenagers.

2-  Forbade even allowing for the child to take on his/her responsibilities in life without being fully ready to engage them.  For instance, in the case of the boy, perhaps he wouldn't even be allowed to carry the sword until his muscles and endurance are fully grown.  Or, for instance, he wouldn't be allowed to take the piece of land that he inherited from his deceased father until he is physically able to plow it.

3-  In Noble Verse 4:6 (section #2) above, Allah Almighty clearly made the age of marriage be a much older one, because through it, He, the Almighty, Gave the determination on when to give the orphan his/her inheritance; when "they reach the age of marriage" (4:6).

  
There is no question that marriage with infant babies and young children is forbidden in Islam.  Allah Almighty made this quite clear for us in the Noble Verses that I presented above.  Please visit:

Ask me any question.

What does the Quran say about adopting orphans?  What is their status in the family?  Do Orphans inherit from their adopted families?

Women in Islam and the Bible (Luke 2:52: GOD forgave Jesus' sins and was "charitable" with him).

3-year old girls were allowed to be raped in the Bible (Luke 2:52: GOD forgave Jesus' sins and was "charitable" with him).

Islam and the Holy Quran - Questions and Answers.

The Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran.

Also Visit:

Prophet Muhammad's Marriage with 9-year old Aisha.

Many of the Bible's Prophets married girls of the same age.  Also, Mary was 12 when she married 99-year old Joseph.

Send your comments.

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The Romans had to fake his crucifixion due to Passover issues: [1]

Mary:  Fornicate with you "in my mother's bed" [1].  Are virgin Mary's mother and bed also members of the barfinity ?


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