The brain in a vat problem!

[confusedseeker]

yes Mujahid, he's trolling. Of course our matter is an illusion. Only materialist Atheists believe in the contrary.

I am not an Atheist & I do believe in the existence of God.

[confusedseeker]

It seems as though your crisis of religion has been solved.

How can it be achieved? Psychotropic drugs, virtual reality, mind control, or whatever sci-fi method you like.

They can transplant arms from a cadaver and have them fully functional.

There are simple tricks you can do to people to make them think something is occurring when it is not. Like rubbing their hand, while they are looking at a fake hand being rubbed, then stab the fake hand type stuff. There's augmented reality. You can mess with a person's equilibrium, sensory perception, whatever.

I'm still not sure of what you want here, it seems like you are against believing in this, yet say it makes you question your faith?

Are you trolling?

Oh, also, people who are quadriplegic and can only move their head, or in some cases only eyes, well they have been testing technology for a long time with good results of people being able to control their environment with such limitations. The next logical step would be to have they, themselves believe it was real. This is where the drugs come into it.

I am not trolling, this idea really did affect my religious beliefs. However, I am much better now thank God. This was a good post, & you did bring up some interesting points. However, things like augmented reality & the rubber hand trick require being embodied in the first place. I think reflex actions such as the one you described in the rubber hand trick make use of mirror neurons right?

The thing that really bothered me was if it was possible to directly stimulate the nerves to make a person feel a change in temperature or pressure etc. I was wondering if electrochemically stimulating the nerves could bring about the proprioceptive sense of your hand lying in a place it isn't? Because if that isn't possible, then the brain in a vat scenario certainly isn't, am I correct?

[Mujahid Saifullah]

I hope I did not insult anyone, as I think I came across more hostile than I intended.

But, I understand what you mean. I would have to say one could go either way on the issue. Science is always advancing. It would all require this current state to demonstrate such a thing. Therefore, it's bearing on our deen is minimal-to-none.

Oh, and to Only1God, what do you mean exactly? It sounded sarcastic.

[confusedseeker]

I hope I did not insult anyone, as I think I came across more hostile than I intended.

Forget about it.

But, I understand what you mean. I would have to say one could go either way on the issue. Science is always advancing. It would all require this current state to demonstrate such a thing. Therefore, it's bearing on our deen is minimal-to-none.

Oh, and to Only1God, what do you mean exactly? It sounded sarcastic.

Do you think the conclusion that I came to about it being impossible is accurate?

Basically I realized that in order to envat the brain, you would need to provide it with a circulatory system, a respiratory system, & other organs. Along with that, the nerves would have to be arranged & laid out in a closed environment for keeping them separate & maintaining temperature. This need for support implies that there must be a skeletal system since it aids in maintaining structure, helping the body deposit calcium, & of course; red blood cells production. In order to dissipate heat, the body requires a protective layer that can expand & shrink to accommodate it while retaining the ability to regenerate. The only material I could think of conforming to that requirement is the human skin. Anyway, going by my example, we seem to be recreating the human body.

So is my view accurate? The only issue here is, could neural inputs ever match those created by living cells?

[confusedseeker]

Any new information anyone?

[There is only one God]

don't worry about it...omgggg


I don't even see how this makes a difference

[confusedseeker]

don't worry about it...omgggg


I don't even see how this makes a difference

How, what makes a difference?

[confusedseeker]

I just wanted to conclude for letting everyone know that dispelling the brain in a vat argument is simple. The answer lies in the origin of sensation. The brain is able to identify the origin of different sensations including pain. The brain in a vat would realize that feelings of pain do not originate from its visible body similar to soldiers being trained on virtual reality. It is impossible to make that brain feel that the source of sensation comes from the visual virtual body.

I think that finally puts this argument to rest, & I want to thank those that participated in this debate with me. I shall take part in discussing other topics on this forum soon Insha Allah.

[Mujahid Saifullah]

Have you heard of phantom limb pain? The brain can be manipulated.

[confusedseeker]

Have you heard of phantom limb pain? The brain can be manipulated.

Sure it can be manipulated using certain drugs, but drug influence can be distinguished from normal experience. Similarly, phantom limb pain occurs because the brain to put it simply has a map of the human body specific to that individual. 

When a human's heart beat increases, he is aware of the origin of that sensation & is able to specify the region of the body where that sensation originates. A virtual body can never have such a sensation because it's simply an image. All nervous inputs continue to originate from the real world, so even if the brain was manipulated it does not change the fact that sensations of all their different kinds will be felt in the live body thus distinguishing it from the virtual life less body.

[Mujahid Saifullah]

Was your original postulation a hypothetical reality in which we all would be simultaneously co-existing in? Because I'm speaking of a specific theoretical scenario of which would apply to only an individual mind.

[confusedseeker]

Was your original postulation a hypothetical reality in which we all would be simultaneously co-existing in? Because I'm speaking of a specific theoretical scenario of which would apply to only an individual mind.

I am sorry for the late reply. Well, the brain in a vat thought experiment implies that either all or a few humans could have had their brains removed by an evil scientist & plugged in to a super computer while the brains. That super computer would provide them with impulses that an embodied mind generally receives deluding those beings in to believing that the world it exists in is the real one. That being would have a body, but that body isn't physical, it's virtual. It's argued that such a being would have no method to figure out that it was being tricked.

Unfortunately, this experiment fails to take humoral signals in to account. Those signals are the ones carried by the blood stream. In order to ensure that the brain experiences life exactly as an embodied being, the diabolical controller would have to provide it with a circulatory, respiratory, excretory system, etc. Remember that adequate blood supply for instance is crucial for the brain & is often referred to as functional hyperemia. Basically, this necessitates a need for a body, the body would have to be functionally coupled with the brain itself so that it regulates & is regulated by the nervous system itself. This surrogate body does not have to be organic but it needs to be as complex as an organic body no matter how simplified it turns out to be. Things like respiration for instance have to be under the control of the conscious mind even in the surrogate body.

The provision of this surrogate body implies that this experiment to delude that being would fail.