A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.

[QuranSearchCom]

As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters in Islam,

Here is a conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.  Insha'Allah, you'll find it very helpful in refuting the crucifion lie very quickly to anyone:

www.answering-christianity.com/conversation_i_had_on_crucifixion_lie.htm

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[fadi]

Wa alaik as’salam akhi Osama,

I read your article. May Allah reward you for your efforts. I have noticed that you said “because Jesus was a spirit; Spirit not a flesh and blood like you and me.” Then the new Muslim said “but Allah says he ate food”. You replied “but he was not a normal flesh and blood”.

But Allah said that Jesus is alike Adam. And Adam is a normal human like me and you. Thus Jesus is a normal human like me and you but he is a Prophet. 
(3:59) Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.

Can you please explain this to me.

[QuranSearchCom]

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Fadi,

Aside from the fact that Prophet Isa, peace be upon him, was created from the Word and filled with the Holy Spirit, but he was also given the power to feel no pain.  As I explained in the conversation, you could drive a sword right threw his gut and out his back, and he still wouldn't feel pain.  Let alone die.  Even if you were to maim him, Allah Almighty would've placed him back together as He did with the birds that Abraham cut into pieces and scattered them in different places:

[002:260] And (remember) when Ibrahim (Abraham) said, "My Lord! Show me how You give life to the dead." He (Allah) said: "Do you not believe?" He (Ibrahim (Abraham)) said: "Yes (I believe), but to be stronger in Faith." He said: "Take four birds, then cause them to incline towards you (then slaughter them, cut them into pieces), and then put a portion of them on every hill, and call them, they will come to you in haste. And know that Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise."


This is what I believe what "THEY NEITHER KILLED HIM NOR CRUCIFIED HIM, but it appeared as such to them" means.  Allah Almighty's Statement is crystal clear about Isa, peace be upon him, appeared to have been killed through crucifixion.  But yet, the Prophet didn't feel a thing.

This is not the first time a Miracle like this happened.  Abraham, peace be upon him, was thrown into the fire by his people, and Allah Almighty Commanded the fire to be cool and peaceful to him:

[021:069] We (Allah) said: "O fire! Be you coolness and safety for Ibrahim (Abraham)!"

Here, again, the fire APPEARED that it was burning Abraham, peace be upon him, when it was not at all.  I believe the Jesus (Isa) situation is the same thing.  He was being killed, but he was never killed nor ever experienced pain.  A similar thing also happened with Jonah (Yunus), peace be upon him, which Jesus also gave his parable, and said that his situation is similar to Jonah in the Bible.  Here is what the Holy Quran Says about Jonah's Miracle with the whale:

[037:139] And, verily, Yoonus (Jonah) was one of the Messengers.
[037:140] When he ran to the laden ship,
[037:141] He (agreed to) cast lots, and he was among the losers,
[037:142] Then a (big) fish swallowed him and he had done an act worthy of blame.
[037:143] Had he not been of them who glorify Allah,
[037:144] He would have indeed remained inside its belly (the fish) till the Day of Resurrection.
[037:145] But We cast him forth on the naked shore while he was sick,
[037:146] And We caused a plant of gourd to grow over him.
[037:147] And We sent him to a hundred thousand (people) or even more.
[037:148] And they believed; so We gave them enjoyment for a while.

Jonah too was saved from death.  Otherwise, the whale's stomach's acids would've painfully dissolved him alive!  But like Jesus and Abraham, it was relatively almost painless to him, because this was one of his Miracles.

Putting it all of this together, we have very strong proofs that it was indeed Isa, peace be upon him, who was placed on the cross, and like Abraham and Jonah and others, it was painless and harmless to him.

And Allah Almighty ALWAYS knows best.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[Omar Ahmed]

But Allah swt said that isa pbuh was not crucified at all...it wasn't isa pbuh on the cross.

[Omar Ahmed]

What i was taught is that judas was made to look like isa pbuh and he was crucified instead.
Isa pbuh was not even put on the cross.

[QuranSearchCom]

What i was taught is that judas was made to look like isa pbuh and he was crucified instead.
Isa pbuh was not even put on the cross.

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,

You were taught conjecture on the Noble Verse that condemns the Christians for believing in nothing but conjecture.  Where is Judas name mentioned in the Holy Quran?  You were taught wrong.  The Noble Verse ONLY mentions Jesus (Isa), peace be upon him.  Therefore, only him went through the whole thing.  If another person was a substitute, then the Noble Verse should've mentioned it.  Otherwise, I have no reason to conjecture.

From reading the entire Glorious Quran, it became quite clear to me that Isa could not have been killed.  Period.  That's all what the Noble Verse is saying.  This is why Allah Almighty Said that He RAISED JESUS TO HIM.  Yes, because Jesus never died, even though he was "crucified" and "killed".  Yet, he was never crucified nor killed.  The infidels thought wrong.

Furthermore, Jesus (Isa), in the Glorious Quran, was given THE BOOK that enabled him to even do limited creating by Allah Almighty's Permission.  BOOKS were given to mighty creations by Allah Almighty.  I have listed several examples from the Glorious Quran:

www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_creating.htm

Also in the Bible, Jesus had to seek GOD Almighty's Permission before he performed any Miracle:

www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_had_no_will.htm

All of this further supports my claims, above.  Indeed in makes perfect sense that a mighty creation who was given the Book that enabled him to do limited creating could not be killed either by being stabbing or by being crucified on the cross.  It makes sense that Allah Almighty Created him like this.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[fadi]

As’salamo alaik akhi Osama,

You said “I have no reason to conjecture.” But in fact you did when you said “but he (Jesus) was also given the power to feel no pain.  As I explained in the conversation, you could drive a sword right threw his gut and out his back, and he still wouldn't feel pain…” Can you kindly advise me where in Quran Allah said so?

According to Quran, Allah allowed Jesus to perform ONLY the following miracles by His will:
1.   (3:46) He will speak unto mankind in his cradle
2.   (3:49) And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers.
3.   (5:112) When the disciples said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Is thy Lord able to send down for us a table spread with food from heaven?... (5:115) Allah said: I am going to send it down unto you …
4.   If you want, you can also read (5:110). It’s similar to verse (3:49) above.

Regarding Cross, please note that Allah said (وَلَـٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ but it appeared so unto them) which strongly support that another person alike Jesus was placed on the cross, otherwise Allah would have said (ولكن ظنوا But they thought). Allah clearly said “they slew him not nor crucified him” which supports (شُبِّهَ alike) i.e Jesus was never put on the cross.
وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ ۚ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ ۚ مَا لَهُم بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا
بَل رَّفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ ۚ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا
(4:157-158) And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise

Since Allah said that they never killed Jesus, then (مُتَوَفِّيكَ does not mean “cause you to die”, it means “cause you to sleep”) as in (39:42) below.
(3:55) Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَىٰ إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ

(39:42) It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا

[QuranSearchCom]

Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother Fadi,

Brother, your argument further proves my points.  Shubbiha (appeared as such) does not refer to a substitute.  The following example should make it clear insha'Allah:



Playing dead to a bear:

Imagine you were hiking in the forest alone, and suddenly a huge bear appears in front of you.  You get down on your face and play dead.  The bear thinks you're dead and decides to walk away.  It APPEARED (SHUBBIHA) TO THE BEAR that you were dead when you weren't.  No substitute.  Just you and the bear.  It was SHUBBIHA to the bear that you were dead, and he got confused and left.

This is basic Arabic.  No conjecture from my part.  The conjecture comes from those who try to bring theories left and right to interpret the Noble Verse.  You don't have to do this if you just let it speak for itself.  The Noble Verse is only speaking about Jesus (Isa), peace be upon him.  So, SUBBIHA LAHUM (appeared as such to them) means that JESUS APPEARED to have been killed by them when he wasn't.  They never killed him neither on the cross nor by stabbing.



Osama is using Conjecture:

You said that I am using conjecture and asked me to prove where one could stab Jesus in the gut, with the sword, and drive it out his back, and still not be able to kill Jesus.  Again, Allah Almighty Said they neither KILLED HIM nor CRUCIFIED HIM.  And we know from the Christian sources that they placed him on the cross and even stabbed him with a spear. 

Now, whether these stories are accurate or not, it still doesn't matter, because here the GLORIOUS QURAN IS RESPONDING TO THEIR FALSEHOODS.  So them claiming these things in their writings makes it all relevant to the Noble Verse.  Therefore, the "killing" of Jesus never happened.  Allah Almighty further assures it in the same Noble Verse:

[004:157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.



Jesus went to the WAFAT state and ascended up to Allah Almighty:

Your point about Jesus going to WAFAT state actually proves my point even more.  Allah Almighty Said in the Glorious Quran:

‏39:42 الله يتوفى الانفس حين موتها والتي لم تمت في منامها فيمسك التي قضى عليها الموت ويرسل الاخرى الى اجل مسمى ان في ذلك لايات لقوم يتفكرون

[039:042]  It is God that takes الله يتوفى the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.

Allah Almighty يتوفى YATAWAFFA (root word WAFAT) our souls during our sleep, and we either die or wake up again. 

The fact that Allah Almighty TAWAFFA (root word WAFAT) Jesus indisputably proves my point.  Thank you for the point, akhi Fadi.  Here Allah Almighty TAWAFFA Jesus in either two cases:

1-  While Jesus was sleeping normally like you and me, and The Almighty decided to not have him wake up here on earth, and decided to raise him in his body to Him in Heaven.

-- OR --

2-  Allah Almighty TAWAFFA Jesus after he was "killed" by the infidels, when he wasn't, and decided to take him up to Heaven to Him after Jesus came back together, or healed, in the tomb while he was resting on the floor.

It is crystal clear that point #2 is the valid one.  Jesus was taken up to Heaven ALIVE after being "killed" by the infidels.  Yet, he was never killed by them, even if they fed him to a grinding machine and made ground beef out of him.  Like the birds that Abraham, peace be upon him, cut into pieces and scattered in different places, they came together to life right before his eyes.  Jesus too would've came back to life.



Jesus, the Mighty Being:

The points that I mentioned above about Jesus' Miracles, and the BOOK that was given to him that enabled him to perform them, and the fact that Jesus was even allowed to do limited CREATING further prove that this mighty being could not have been killed on the cross by being nailed on it for few hours and stabbed by a spear on the side.

No conjecture, my dear brother.  Only solid Truth.  May Allah Almighty bless you.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[fadi]

Akhi Osama, As’salamo Alaik,

Thank you kindly for taking the time to read my comments and for your response. May Allah reward you for your efforts. I just want to add few verses from Quran to illustrate further that another person was placed on the cross and not Jesus.

Allah said (shubbiha شُبِّهَ) means “alike” as in (Mo-ta-shab-ihan 2:25 and they shall be given the like of it); (Ta-shabah 2:70 to us all cows are alike); (Ta-shabahat 2:118 Their hearts are alike); and (3:7; 6:99; 6:144; 13:16, 39:23) 

If Allah meant that Jesus was the one who placed on the cross, He would have said (Hasebo  حَسِبُوا) means “think” as in (Haseb-tom 2:214 Or think you that you will enter Paradise without such (trials)); (yah-sabahom 2:273 The one who knows them not, thinks that they are rich); and (3:78; 3:142; 3:169; etc.)

Or, He could have said (Zano ظنوا) means “guess or think” (ya-zonon 2:46 Who bear in mind the certainty); (ya-zonon 2:78 and they but guess); etc.

Or He could have said (Shako شكوا) means “doubt” as (Shak 40:34 but ye ceased not to doubt); (Shak 41:45 they are in grave doubt); etc.

As you see, Allah said (shubbiha شُبِّهَ) to indicate that another person “looks like” Jesus. Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar precisely translated to “a likeness to him of another was shown to them”.

In my previous post, I said:
"Since Allah said that they never killed Jesus, then (مُتَوَفِّيكَ does not mean “cause you to die”, it means “cause you to sleep”) as in (39:42) below.
(3:55) Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَىٰ إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ

(39:42) It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا " but when I viewed the post, I only saw one word from this verse "مَنَامِهَا", thus I decided to mention it again.

Akhi Osama: regarding (يتوفى YATAWAFFA), I am very stunned of how you made a conclusion that “It is crystal clear that point #2 is the valid one. Jesus was taken up to Heaven ALIVE after being "killed" by the infidels.” But, Allah clearly said that they DID NOT kill him. Therefore, as I explained in my previous post, Allah caused him to sleep when He raised him.

I appreciate that you may not agree with me but this is my understanding from Quran. Jesus was never died or even placed on the cross. He was raised alive while sleeping. And Allah knows best.

[fadi]

Salam again,

That's strange. For the second time I posted verse (39:42) اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep.

I only see one word from this verse in my monitor (مَنَامِهَا). Please refer to (In my previous post, I said: ...)
 

[QuranSearchCom]

Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother Fadi,

There are several errors in your posts.  The following are the corrections:

1-  Hasebo  حَسِبُوا does not mean "think".  It means reckoned.

2-  Zano ظنوا.  It is not ZANO.  It is THANNO.  And it means "they thought".

3-  Shako شكوا.  Doubted.  Ok.  But what does this have to do with seeing Jesus getting crucified.

4-  Shubbiha شُبِّهَ does not just mean alike.  And I don't know why you insist on this meaning when that would be wrong in the context of Noble Verse 4:157.  I already gave you the playing dead to the bear example.  By playing dead, the bear would be confused into thinking that the person is dead.  There would be TASHABUH (mix up).  And it would be SHUBBIHA to the bear that the person was dead, when in fact the person was alive playing dead.

We're not in much disagreements here regarding the meanings of the Noble Word SHUBBIHA.  However, you keep insisting on forcing a false interpretation into the Noble Verse.  The following points are important to consider:

1-  No second person was mentioned in the Noble Verse.

2-  Jesus was the one who was sentenced to death.

3-  Jesus was "executed" by the infidels.  Notice the double quotes here.

4-  It appeared to them that Jesus was killed.

So far we do not have any second person here.  Allah Almighty saved Jesus from pain and death.  This is in the Bible and the Glorious Quran.  Now, let's pay attention to the point that will finish the conjecture:


5-  Allah Almighty RAISED JESUS TO HIM.  We already talked about WAFAT and TAWAFFA. 

6-  It makes no sense that Jesus was raised to Heaven during his sleep before the crucifixion.  I say this because:


(a)-  AGAIN AND AGAIN, no second person is mentioned in the Noble Verse.  You are forcing this on Noble Verse 4:157!  It is all about Jesus and none other.

(b)-  Allah Almighty elaborated twice in the same Noble Verse, 4:157, that they did not kill Jesus.

(c)-  If Jesus wasn't even on earth that day, let alone the cross, then the context of the Noble Verse should've been that they did not even capture Jesus.  But instead, the context is about Jesus' execution and its details.


You have nothing but conjecture when you insist on a second person substitution.  Noble Verse 4:157 does not mention any second person.  You are the one forcing this on the Holy Quran.  Why do you keep injecting this falsehood into the Glorious Quran?  We already have Prophets before Jesus that were saved from death DURING EXECUTION by Allah Almighty.  I already gave you Abraham and Jonah. 



Jonah's Parable:

And did not Jesus give his last and final Parable to his disciples to be that similar to Jonah's experience?  We know:

1-  Jonah was alive when he was on the shore.
2-  Jonah was alive when he was in the whale's belly.
3-  Jonah was alive when he was vomited out of the whale's belly.

And Jonah in the Bible and the Glorious Quran went through death and survived it.  I know the Bible is not the Holy Word of Allah Almighty, but not all of it is false either.  I find it quite amazing that Jesus used Jonah as his final parable, because this destroys the crucifixion lie.  There is so much evidence that backs up my point from the Bible.  It is just that some Muslims and the Christians have this whole thing misunderstood.



Was there a substitute to Jonah?

Both the Bible and the Glorious Quran agree that there was no substitute to Jonah.  And it is quite obvious that those who saw Jonah get swallowed by the whale also thought that he was dead.  SHUBBIHA LAHUM there also.

So if Jesus used Jonah as his last and final Parable, and there was no substitute to Jonah, then why on earth must we believe that there was a substitute to Jesus on the cross?  Who is using conjecture here?



Why the Parable when he will not even go through it?

And why must Jesus give his SILLY PARABLE of Jonah when he himself will not even go through the "death" (notice the double quotes) experience??  What does he have to do with any of it if he wasn't to go through it?

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[fadi]

Salam Osama,

I totally understood your argument. You are saying that they placed Jesus on the cross, nailed him, etc until they believed that they killed him (i.e. he died), but Allah told us in Quran that he did not die.

Allah said “they killed him not, nor crucified him”. Why didn’t Allah say “they crucified him but did not kill him, but so it was made to appear to them”? In my humble understanding, Allah said “they did not crucify him” is self explanatory that he was not crucified or even came close to the cross. Then Allah continued and said (وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ and those who differ therein). My question is: what did they differ in? of whether he is dead or not. If so, they could simply continue to hit him many times in a sword and there is no reason to differ. What makes more sense to me that they differ in of whether he is Jesus or someone else?

Akhi Osama, please note that in no way I am enforcing my opinion on anyone but our purpose is we chat on the blog to understand the truth only.

[QuranSearchCom]

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Fadi,

You raised very good points, akhi.  Here are my responses to them:

1-  They crucified him not, nor killed him.  You asked why did Allah Almighty make a distinction between them.  If Jesus was placed on the cross and did not die, then he was crucified without being killed.  But the problem with your statement is that at the end of the same Noble Verse, Allah Almighty did sum them up:

[004:157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

So whether death by the cross of by killing in other ways, it never happened.  "...nor did they crucify him..." here clearly means that they did not kill him through crucifixion.  Again, the end of the Noble Verse makes that very clear that death did not happen neither by crucifixion nor by stabbing or any other mean.


2-  What did they differ on Jesus, you asked.  They differed on him in so many things:

(a)-  That he is GOD Almighty who died for our sins.
(b)-  That he actually died.
(c)-  That he actually resurrected from death.

Not all early Christians agreed on what happened to Jesus.  Much disputes and theories and roamers started floating around.  And again, Allah Almighty brings it all together by saying in the same Noble Verse:

[004:157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.


3-  You asked: "What makes more sense to me that they differ in of whether he is Jesus or someone else?".

RESPONSE:

Allah Almighty used the word SUBSTITUTE (BADAL) 35 times in 34 Noble Verses throughout the Glorious Quran.  Yet, this Noble Word was never used in Noble Verse 4:157.

Also, it is quite clear from the Glorious Quran that Allah Almighty left the details of the experience to be looked at in the Christians' books, since this topic is theirs.  And when we examine their books, we find the JONAH PARABLE, which I elaborated on above.  And since Jonah was never substituted by anyone, then Jesus too was not substituted by anyone, since Jesus used the Jonah Parable as his ultimate and last one.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah, my dear brother.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[Omar Ahmed]

In the end Allah swt knows best and we shouldn't argue on this.
The only thing we can be sure of is that Jesus pbuh was not killed by the jews, whether he died in any other means we are not sure.

[fadi]

Wa-alaikum as’salam akhi Osama,

You said in your post above (“it is quite clear from the Glorious Quran that Allah Almighty left the details of the experience to be looked at in the Christians books, since this topic is theirs.”) I want to remind all of us that this contradicts Quran. Allah said that He explained everything in Quran in great details, and He wants us to use only Quran.

(50:45) We are most knowing of what they say, and you are not over them a tyrant. But remind by the Qur'an whoever fears My threat.
       
(6:38) There is not a moving (living) creature on earth, nor a bird that flies with its two wings, but are communities like you. We have neglected nothing in the Book, then unto their Lord they (all) shall be gathered. 

(30:58) And We have certainly presented to the people in this Qur'an from every [kind of] example. But, [O Muhammad], if you should bring them a sign, the disbelievers will surely say, “You [believers] are but falsifiers.”

(39:27) We have put forth for men, in this Qur'an every kind of Parable, in order that they may receive admonition.

(17:89) And indeed We have fully explained to mankind, in this Quran, every kind of similitude, but most mankind refuse (the truth and accept nothing) but disbelief.

(18:54) And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.