Quranist?

[mclinkin94]

The monotheists are still waiting .

Hello brother Black Muslim, can you please give me the exact link to the english version of the website that I promised I would discuss Quran Islam in?

I can start discussing with them now. Unfortunately, on this forum, I will no longer discuss anything pertaining to Quran Only Islam.

Feel free to join in in that forum so long as you:

-Avoid rhetoric and insults
-Criticize constructively

I feel like brother Egyptian is a great example of how to discuss something

[mclinkin94]

[quote0 Thats incredible indeed.... on one hand you wrongly turns the nonmuslims into muslims ,and the muslims into non muslims ...  what a twist !!!

plz remember don't get us into small cult Quranists vs Sunna discussion ... that is not our topic...  [/quote]

Quranist vs. Sunnah is not our topic and it cannot be our topic on this forum

I don't think it is incredible to label those who reject one Quranic verse as disbelievers. Whether they identify as Muslim, Christian, etc, you become a disbeliever once you reject a Quranic verse.

Quran 3:4 Before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Qur'an. Indeed, those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah will have a severe punishment, and Allah is exalted in Might, the Owner of Retribution.

I repaet again ,christians who never heard of Islam are NOT muslims ([read again my post of the qualifications to be a muslim), but whether destined to hell or not , God will judge them with his justice and mercy....

You are equivocating on the word "muslim". That will serve as an issue.

  If they held the monotheism of the old testament ,kept the law.... then not only they can be called (muslims) but also saved.  if they took Jesus as God , then they no longer be called muslims and their destiney to hell.

Agreed.

The best meaning is to say that Unitarians who have not heard Allah's verses in the Quran are Muslims. 

Again unitarians are not muslims even if not heard the Quran.....why? because they don't believe in Allah and the day of judgment ,they don't held the law of lawful and unlawful.

Yes they do. And most do live righteous lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses#Beliefs

I also have no problem labeling those who do not know anything about Islam (heard Allah's verses) but believe in God, the last day and live a righteous life as Muslims.   

those folk ,simply don't exist .

You really think that? How about people who only hear bad things about Islam-->Evil, terrorism, murder etc. You think they heard Allah's actual verses and disbelieved?

I have no problem with that only the christian who took Jesus as God in spite of their knowledge of the monotheism of the old testament shouldn't be saved...

Nor does the Quran.

.
So my basic thesis is that Quran 2:62 states that ANYONE who believes in God, the last day and lives a righteous life will be saved.

Rejecting a Quranic verse is not living a righteous life.

Believing Jesus as God is not believing in Allah as God. 

Those who are ignorant of Islam but believe in God and the last day and live a life that is moral cannot grieve in the last day.

[Egyptian]

the only new lines you provided in the last post is the article about Jehova witnesses, otherwise you reset your lines that I addressed and replyed to....

now regarding  the article you quoted ,let's see why Jehova witnesses ,can't be labled "muslims",in light of what the Quran defines muslims:

The article says:

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is God's only direct creation, that everything else was created by means of Christ, and that the initial unassisted act of creation uniquely identifies Jesus as God's "only-begotten Son".


why they say so?

because both Trinitarians and unitarians believe that JESUS is the creator of the universe !, why they say so? because the new testament clearly say so. eg;

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.For by him (Jesus) all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


surely a muslim doesn't need to know Allah is the creator of the universe ,or may you need Quranic clue?

Holy Quran 40:62 Such is Allah, your Lord, the Creator of all things, there is no god but He: Then how ye are deluded away from the Truth!

7:191 Do they indeed ascribe to Him as partners things that can create nothing, but are themselves created?

So in terms of montheism ,Jehova witnesses, clearly,and according to the Quran,are  mushrik ascribing one of the the basic divine attributes to a human.

In terms of believing in the day of judgment :

Jehovah's Witnesses believe death is a state of non-existence with no consciousness. There is no Hell of fiery torment.

Watch Tower Society publications teach that humanity is in a sinful state, from which release is only possible by means of Jesus' shed blood as a ransom.

In terms of the lawful and unlawful ,they drink alcohol and eat pork ...

In other words the noble verse 9:29 fits perfectly on them :
believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth.


If after all such quranic input still you insist that they are muslims... then not only you could be labled as Sunna denier..but also not a true Quranist....

[mclinkin94]

It is important to note that I did not say that jehovah's witnesses beliefs are correct.

I said they:

Believe in God
Believe in the last day
Live righteous lives.

Those are the criteria given in Quran 2:62.

Having incorrect beliefs is not a sin. But having incorrect beliefs and hearing Allah's verses and rejecting them, that disqualifies you as being saved because you invalided one of the criteria to be saved ("Live righteous lives")


Now despite the unitarian belief that jesus had some part of creation (which is wrong), they believe the ultimate creator is Allah.

Now you mentioned Quran 9:29. In no place does that verse contradict or as some Quran deniers say "abrogate" Quran 2:62. Quran 9:29 makes it clear that you must fight those who (among others) "who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture". Quran 9:29 is simply commanding Muhammad that he is to inform to the people of the scripture the religion of the truth, and IF they deny and do not uphold the religion of Islam, you are to fight them. ONCE they deny Allah's verses, they no longer fit the criteria given in Quran 2:62 and they become disbelievers. So again, we see my case being proven and your case negated.

If after all such quranic input still you insist that they are muslims... then not only you could be labled as Sunna denier..but also not a true Quranist....

I have shown you that Quranists are not the only ones who take my position.

Abduraheem Greene stated that this verse does apply to everyone. It applies to people who have not heard of Allah and his verses but who believe in God the last day and live righteous lives. These people are the ones who existed before the Quran was sent down or the ignorant Christians and Jews today.

I don't like to quote authorities to prove my point, I don't need an authority to explain the Quran to me when I've been told to ponder it myself (not let others do it for me). The only reason I pointed you to Greene's statement is to show it is not limited to Quranist reasoning.

[Egyptian]

Now despite the unitarian belief that jesus had some part of creation (which is wrong)

wrong ?!! no it is SHIRK and gets anyone who believes so anytime anywhere outside the folds of islam completely...

Do you think anyone who believes that a human being (jesus) created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

still be a muslim? !!    Just be factual mclinkin94....

and NO  neither unitarians nor Trinitarians believe that Allah aka (the father) is the one who created ....  just go study well the theology of both the trinitarians and the unitarian.

I said they:

Believe in God
Believe in the last day
Live righteous lives.

and I said they DON'T, supported that from both the Quran and the same article you quoted.

Quran 9:29 is simply commanding Muhammad that he is to inform to the people of the scripture the religion of the truth, and IF they deny and do not uphold the religion of Islam, you are to fight them. ONCE they deny Allah's verses, they no longer fit the criteria given in Quran 2:62 and they become disbelievers.

If the people of the scripture deny and do not uphold the religion of Islam they no longer fit the criteria given in Quran 2:62 and they become disbelievers. 


in other words anyone anywhere who won't uphold the religion of Islam (whether trinitarian,unitarian) as conveyed by the prophet Mohamed peace be upon him is automatically disbeliever  ... no sane person would understand the verse to be saying they were believers before the  warning of  the prophet and became disbelievers afterwards, they simple were desbelievers before the mission of Islam and continued  to be disbelievers ....
if they were believers there were no sense at all to be warned,fought etc....


I provided clear cut proofs (from both the quran and the bible) that all the people of the book  all included in the verse 9:29 as disbelievers... you provided nothing to sustain your position ..anyway let our readers judge...


one final word,  the words of Abduraheem Greene has nothing to do with the point, the destiney of those christians before or after Islam has nothing to do with whether their theologies can be labled as ISLAM.

[mclinkin94]

wrong ?!! no it is SHIRK and gets anyone who believes so anytime anywhere outside the folds of islam completely...

Do you think anyone who believes that a human being (jesus) created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Shirk is when you put partners with Allah. If unitarians do that, then they won't be saved.

Now what I know is that unitarians believe that Allah created everything. I don't see any shirk there.

The only thing that is wrong is when they said that Allah used Jesus to create the world. This is not shirk.

In the Quran, Allah used Gabriel to give the message to the prophet. We believe that Allah gave the message to the prophet, irrespective of who he used. Just as the case with Jesus. They believe Allah used Jesus to create the world. Who created the world? Allah. Same concept. Neither counts as shirk. Allah is the ultimate creator and ruler of the world in both cases.

Let's give an example: Let's say Allah created the universe by instructing an Angel to start off the big bang. Who created the universe? An Angel or Allah? Is it shirk to believe that an angel started the big bang by Allah's power? Who is the ultimate creator?

Allah delivered the message to Muhammad in Islam--> Even though he used Gabriel

In Christianity (unfortunately) Allah created the world-->Even though he used Jesus.

and I said they DON'T, supported that from both the Quran and the same article you quoted.

They do. The Quran makes it clear that some of them do (or did) in 2:62.  I hope you won't at least deny that. Otherwise if none of them believe in God, the last day and live righteous lives, THEN why would Allah say that the jews/Christians that believe in God, the last day and live righteous lives would be saved?

If the people of the scripture deny and do not uphold the religion of Islam they no longer fit the criteria given in Quran 2:62 and they become disbelievers. 


in other words anyone anywhere who won't uphold the religion of Islam (whether trinitarian,unitarian) as conveyed by the prophet Mohamed peace be upon him becomes automatically disbeliever  ...

Yes. IF they deny the Quran, they become disbelievers. That applies to everyone.

For your second statement, it is true. Anyone who won't uphold the religion of Islam once the Quran has been recited to them, become disbelievers based on the Quranic criteria--yes.

not because they were believers before the  warning of  the prophet , they simple were disbelievers and continued  to be disbelievers ....
if they were believers there were no sense at all to be warned,fought etc....

Not necessarily. Think of it like your boss at the company gave you a new law--a new rule...if you continue to obey the old law--you are going against your boss.

They were not disbelievers because they:

-Believed in God (not trinitarian either)
-The last day
-Lived righteous lives

I provided clear cut irrefutable proofs (from both the quran and the bible) that all the people of the book  all included in the verse 9:29 as disbelievers... you provided nothing to sustain your position ..anyway let our readers judge...


one final word,  the words of Abduraheem Greene has nothing to do with the point, the destiny of those christians before or after Islam has nothing to do with whether their theologies can be labled as ISLAM.

Quite the contrary, I have not seen any good arguments presented.


Islam means submission. To be labeled as islam is to submit. If muslims and Christians and jews correctly submit to Allah given by the criteria in the Quran (2:62) and elsewhere, they are Muslim.

[Black Muslim]

Hello brother Black Muslim

After calling me and the majority of Muslims through history as disbelievers , I don't consider myself a brother of yours .

can you please give me the exact link to the english version of the website that I promised I would discuss Quran Islam in?

There isn't an English version of the site . I thought you were capable of reading Arabic and thus I suggested that you have your discussion in English after registering . If you really need an English site , you have a friend forum specialized in the topic :

http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/

[Egyptian]

Shirk is when you put partners with Allah. If unitarians do that, then they won't be saved.

superficial definition ,shirk include ascribing any quality any divine work,power to a creature(even if it is known to be a creature)..
that include the catholic believe in Mary ,the unitarian believe in Jesus as the creator of everything and everything is created for him !.

don't tell me that their belief in Jesus as created by God would save them from blasphemy.....
Catholics know that Mary is mere human ,yet the Quran blasphemized them ...  the same way with unitarians ...

The only thing that is wrong is when they said that Allah used Jesus to create the world. 

how wrong? I say till blasphemy ...Allah didn't create everything seen and unseen by any agent ..
the catholics commit the same mistake while dealing with Mary ...
they think just cause they think she is human...no problem of the things they believe and do with her....

Let's give an example: Let's say Allah created the universe by instructing an Angel to start off the big bang.

we are not into the game of guessing , we are into the reality ...  no agent but Allah who created everything saying otherwise is blasphemy....

ascribing a power that is exclusive to Allah is shirk ... consult a basic tawheed book ,to find out the simplicity of your error.

They do. The Quran makes it clear that some of them do (or did) in 2:62.

If they Do ,then they necessarily converted to Islam, if they DID then they necessarily weren't christians "trinitarians or unitarians".... could be some Jews "who were strictly monotheists"....

why would Allah say that the jews/Christians that believe in God, the last day and live righteous lives would be saved?

the answer is simple ,either you render the verse as a present and future ,then the meaning any of them who would believe in God, the last day and live righteous lives (aka being a convert to Islam), or render it as a past then the meaning ,any of them who believed in God, the last day and lived  righteous lives (aka those who believed in Moses and the applied the true torah ,and those who applied the true injeel) .... they ofcourse are neither the trinitarians nor the unitarians ... as the Quran clearly blasphemized their theology whether before or after ISlam.

.Not necessarily. Think of it like your boss at the company gave you a new law--a new rule...if you continue to obey the old law--you are going against your boss. 

the old law was corrupted , that is why the boss sent the prophet..

[mclinkin94]

So you think that Allah doesn't use agents in doing his work? This is obviously false as I could point you to many cases in which Allah used agents to accomplish things. Even by using agents, Allah is the ultimate doer of these things. It is not shirk and it is not superficial shirk. Allah is still the ultimate creator irrespective of what agents he uses.

Again, this is not a guessing game. I gave an analogy and all responded with is that I was playing a game. An analogy is useful in explaining concepts. Here is one:

Let's say that I create a computer simulation (like a sim's game) and I use one of my sims to do something in that simulation. Who is the ultimate simulator in that case? Would it be putting partners with me? No, I'm simply using an agent to do the works. 

how wrong? I say till blasphemy ...Allah didn't create everything seen and unseen by any agent ..

How do you know that.?

If Allah created the world without an agent he could say in the Quran that he created the entire world.

If Allah created the world WITH an agent, he could still say in the Quran that he created the entire world.

How about this example: In the Quran, Allah sets laws for all of this creation and establishes himself on his throne. So here the agent is the laws set by Allah in the universe. The physical laws are the agents that keep the universe in order.

Note: I am not saying that I know whether Allah used an agent or not in creation, what I am saying is that if he did--he is still the maximally great being and the owner of the worlds.

What I am saying is that Allah is not limited to not using agents in doing his works. Allah can do as he chooses.

Quran 13:11 For each one are successive [angels] before and behind him who protect him by the decree of Allah .


So who is protecting you? Angels or Allah?

the answer is simple ,either you render the verse as a present and future ,then the meaning any of them who would believe in God, the last day and live righteous lives (aka being a convert to Islam), or render it as a past then the meaning ,any of them who believed in God, the last day and lived  righteous lives (aka those who believed in Moses and the applied the true torah ,and those who applied the true injeel) .... they ofcourse are neither the trinitarians nor the unitarians ... as the Quran clearly blasphemized their theology whether before or after ISlam.

Then we are in agreement except that there is more to it.

Those who:

-Live righteous lives
-Believe only in God
-Believe in the last day

Like i said, I don't see any problem with unitarians fitting that criteria.

Now even if you still maintain that jehovah's witnesses are blaphemining (which is wrong to say based on Allah using agents alone), there are other forms of unitarian Christianity that fit Quran 2:62

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism#Beliefs

[Egyptian]

So you think that Allah doesn't use agents in doing his work?

I never said so ...   and I don't need  you to point to many cases in which Allah used agents to accomplish things , I just need you to show me the case   when ALLAH created a being and let this being create everything things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.He is before all things, and in him all things hold together....

mclinkin94 ,we are not discussing God Can or Can't , but Did or Didn't ....

quran 6:21 Who doth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie against Allah or denieth His revelations? Lo! the wrongdoers will not be successful.

Quran 13:11 For each one are successive [angels] before and behind him who protect him by the decree of Allah .So who is protecting you? Angels or Allah?

Nice try mclinkin , but the agents of protection are mentioned here in the verse, unlike,who is the agent For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities ?

If you say there is ,then you invent a lie against Allah ... and got yourself directly into the high way of blasphemy (with your dear fellow muslims of jehovah's witnesses !).....

Like i said, I don't see any problem with unitarians fitting that criteria.

I said any human on earth (whether pagan,jew,christian,unitarian etc...) who won't adapt Islam as conveyed by the prophet peace be upon him , can't and won't be a muslim ....

the readers who would judge which position is solid ...