Is Jinn=Bacteria? What is your opinion?

[Black Muslim]

The people of Monotheism invite you to bring forth your proof if you speak the truth .

http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php

I didn't bother at first but apparently deeming whole nations destined to hellfire isn't something to pass as if it's nothing . They want to see your so called evidence in what you claim . So what's your answer ?

[mclinkin94]

I will be as clear and consise as possible.

If you claim that there is another source of law besides the Quran, show me where in the Quran this is stated. You have not done this and this is because it is NOT stated in the Quran. 

If the Quran does not authorize another source of law besides itself, you fail. It is hopeless for you. You have to accept the reality.

I keep answering it day in day out but you seem to lack common sense and the basic understanding of BOTH Arabic and English . Indeed , we don't believe in anything after the signs and revelations of Allah . That includes Sunnah as it is a revelation of Allah as all these previous signs say clear as day . The prophet peace upon him doesn't innovate of his own in religion . That's your delusion .

 You say the sunnah is a revelation of Allah yet provide absolutely NO evidence thereof. Why should we believe you?

The prophet does NOT innovate in this religion, PEOPLE innovate and say the prophet did it.

I again will post Quran 45:6 as your failure to understand it is very disturbing.

Quran 45:6 "These are God's revelations (Quran) that We recite to you truthfully. In which statement other than God and His revelations (Quran) do they believe?"

What does the word "THESE" refer to?  If I write a book and within the book I say "THESE are the sentences that we write to you. What statement will you follow besides me and my sentences". What does not refer to? It refers to the sentences of the Book. So when ALlah says THESE are my revelations that I recite to you, it means the Quran is Allah revelations that are recited to you--in what statement besdies Allah's revelations (Quran) will you beleive.

THis verse makes it absolutely clear there is no room for Sunnah. Show me how this verse does not and you have an argument. You cannot prove your statement that the Sunnah is a revelation from Allah by just restating it. You must show that Quran 45:6 doesn't make it clear that the Quran is the ONLY source! We both know it does make it clear and that is why you do not produce a counter-argument.

You just restate your argument....How is that supposed to prove your case?

So you're that eager to run away with your tail between your legs ? And again , I am no brother of an enemy of Islam like you . You miserable low life form went as low as to deem the entirety of the Islamic nation disbelievers destined to hell except the great you who will go to heaven . You've bee saying it about me all the time and I beared with it . But you crossed the line . This is war . There is no room for compromise or sweet talk .

I ask again, am I the one to state that the majority of the "Islamic" nation are disbelievers, or did the Quran?

The Messenger will say, my Lord, my people have deserted this Qur’an. (25:30)

Not only that I have told you this argument is a logical fallacy known as argumentum ad populum. Yet you still persist. I don't understand. This must be some form of reluctance.

83:34 So Today those who believed are laughing at the disbelievers, 35 On adorned couches, observing. 36 Have the disbelievers [not] been rewarded [this Day] for what they used to do?

We will see who laughs linckin . And I swear it won't be you with your current twisted mentality .

Indeed we will see who laughs. The follower of the Quran which states that it is the only source of law or the follower of his corrupted nation who  states that there is another source of law besides the Quran.

So you'd go as low as to accuse Allah of contradiction . It is very SICKENING when I see the likes of you write signs they don't understand just to justify their blasphemy . If you had the slightest bet of common sense , you wouldn't have dared make such a ridiculous statement . Let's see the signs in their context :

25:30 And the Messenger has said, "O my Lord, indeed my people have taken this Qur'an as [a thing] abandoned." 31 And thus have We made for every prophet an enemy from among the criminals. But sufficient is your Lord as a guide and a helper. 32 And those who disbelieve say, "Why was the Qur'an not revealed to him all at once?" Thus [it is] that We may strengthen thereby your heart. And We have spaced it distinctly. 33 And they do not come to you with an argument except that We bring you the truth and the best explanation.

So who are those people ? Considering that the verb is in the past tense , it talks about something that already happened while the prophet was delivering the message and not your ill fantasies . The people here are the pagans of Makkah , Quraish , his people . That's how sane people understand the sign , and that's how scholars understand the sign :
http://www.alro7.net/ayaq.php?sourid=25&aya=30

Now I have enough evidence that you truly don't understand the Quran. The good news is, this misunderstanding can be fixed only if you are willing to accept it.

The context of Quran 25:30 is speaking about the day of resurrection and what happens after this life. The prophet will say, Oh Allah, my people have abandoned the Quran. Of course it is in the past tense, this verse is talking about the prophet telling this to Allah in the future (day of resurrection). Let me give an example:

"Five years from now, I say: My people have abandoned the Quran". Now why was the second part of the sentence past tense??? Because it was me speaking in the future about the past! if you notice, the verses before Quran 25:30 were ALSO in past tense and they were about the disbelievers stating: "Oh I wished I had listened to the prophet's warning". Why is that in past tense?

Secondly, if people forsake or abandon the Quran, that means that the had to have already been following the Quran. So they followed it, then abandoned it.

So from this we conclude that Quran 25:30 is speaking about how people will abandon the Quran after following it. This cannot be about the meccans because the meccans never followed the Quran in the first place. How could they abandon/forsake something they never followed?

This verse is not only limited to the Quraish, it is about EVERYONE who abandoned the Quran. It predicts that in the future people will abandon the Quran.

What I'm saying you miserable low life is that your statment - in that premetive view - contradicts itself . Using your statment , I can say people are guided as they follow the way of the prophet . Keep deluding yourself that you're guided and all else will go to hell . You are nothing close to guidance , you and the likes are POISON to the nation . A vile virus that needs to be exterminated . You hold absolutely no respect to Islam and its teachings . You take your desires as Gods you worship . Not to mention your utmost stupidity , retarded logic , and folligh statements contradicting each other . You take that puny brain of yours as holy think you understand everything . While Allah says he will explain Quran , every sane person can see that it is through the prophet peace upon him in spite of you and the likes of you . On the other hand , you're so twisted as to think you recieve revelations that the prophet didn't . You think you're the only one who understands among the entirety of humanity . When you make a blasphemous statement such as that Allah explains Quran especially to you , you have to bring evidence from Quran or Sunnah . And you will always fail miserably with any of them . The almighty Allah is far greater beyond imaginable to talk with such a low life like you . He sent a prophet with guidance and truth for them to reign over all else in spite of disbelievers and in spite of you . That prophet is the one whom Allah explains the noble Quran through , not a nobody like you . Your opponent is Allah . And while you don't equal the shoes of a scholar , there is no room for comparison between you and the almighty , not that there is between him and anything else at all . I'm not the one rejecting his words , YOU ARE .

I hold respect for True-Islam. Not your corrupted version. It is hard to call your version Islam. That is how deviant it is from the Quran.

I don't recall saying that I will recieve revelation. Allah does explain the Quran and I have stated HOW. Did you even read it. Go back to my previous post and I put up an entire description of HOW allah explains the Quran. Go back and read it. I told you that I expect a counter-argument--and you have made none.  Go back to my last post on this thread, I underlined that I want to see a counter argument to the fact that Allah HAS explained the Quran through the Quran.


You are rejecting Allah's words as it has been made clear to you many times. You have not shown me how I am rejecting Allah's words. All I am doing is showing you Allah's words.

So enough with the rant and long posts . I'll finish it directly .

1 - Quran orders us to obey the messenger and what he teaches as they are revelations from Allah himself in numerous places throughout the noble book . If you try to make a ridiculous attemot such as claiming Quran is complete and doesn't need anything else to explain it in such a premetive way of understanding then you are accusing Allah of contradicting and that's where I will immediately say you are a vile "Kafir" flat out . It IS complete when it tells us to obey the messenger . If you don't believe in that then don't dare call yourself a Muslim .

Finally, now we get into the meat of the matter.

The Quran DOES order us to obey the messenger--I have never denied that.  The Quran did not authorize another source of law besides it. Are you suggesting that Allah is contradicting himself when he says that the Quran is the only source of law/fully detailed and then says that the messenger has more details than the Quran? Is that really what you are suggesting?

The short rebuttal; To obey the messenger means to obey the message. The message is the Quran. If we obey the messenger, we obey the Quran thus we obey Allah.

The long rebuttal: There is no indication that you are to follow the Sunnah, because the prophet's sole duty is to give the message and the Quran has informed us that the message is in THIS BOOK (Quran) and that this message is complete. DONE! NO room for sunnah.

The word Messenger is derived from the word Message. A Messenger delivers a Message. If there was no message there would be no messenger. To Obey the Messenger would thus mean to obey the message he is delivering.

Prophet Muhammad is a chosen man who was of fine character and he was given the duty of delivering the Quran, he did that successfully.

So lets study some verses about the sole duty of prophet Muhammad according to the quran.

Sura 5:99
The SOLE DUTY of the messenger is to deliver the message and God knows everything you declare and everything you conceal

Sura 72:23
I only deliver God's words and messages.

Sura 5:67
O you messenger, deliver what is revealed to you from your Lord - until you do, you have not delivered His message.

Sura 5:92
And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the SOLE DUTY of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message).

Sura 64:12
And obey God and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger is the SOLE DUTY of the clear delivery (of the message).



Let's Summarize this one more time and I will bold it and increase the size so that it is emphasized

YOU CANNOT FOLLOW THE MESSAGE, UNLESS YOU FOLLOW THE MESSENGER. IF YOU FOLLOW THE MESSAGE, YOU FOLLOW THE MESSENGER

The whole point of these verses, is Allah reminding you that if you don't follow the messager, you are not following the message. The messenger gives the message and you follow the messenger.

The messenger did NOT add anything to Allah's message as is made clear by Allah's message.

2 - You have absolutely no basis to believe in Quran using your rotten logic . You can't deny the possibility that it was corrupted or altered . You can't prove that a man named Muhammad existed . And if you bring that Da Vinci code garbage again I'll throw it immideately with the rest of garbage . This describes you as a blind believer . You don't have any logical reasons to believe in Islam . Following this rotten line of thinking you take leads us to deny history in its entirety .

EVEN if I had no basis to believe in the Quran, it doesn't mean the Quran leaves room for the sunnah. Do you understand how inconsistent your logic is?

But, I DO have a basis to believe in the Quran. If you are referring to the 19 code of the Quran as Da Vinci Code and call it garbage--I can easily dismiss it as you have not studied such a code. When you do, you will understand the basis to believe in the Quran. I do have logical reasons to believe in Islam--you are just ignorant of the complexity of the 19 code in the Quran. It is not me, it is you.

3 - You rejectors are the most ignorant of Quran . You have no basis for your acrobatic explanations . You rant about how you're the only ones who understand Islam . While the fact is you can't explain a thing with Quran alone . You contradict the book itself ! You can't explain how to pray . You can't explain how to perform pilgrimage . You can't explain a thing . Whenever you are faced with this you used your personal opinions and liking .

EVEN if we can't explain these things, it doesn't mean the Quran or Allah authorized the sunnah or another source of law.

We cCAN explain how to pray, pilgramage. Who says we can't. The explanation though, will obviously be different from your corrupted understanding of prayer/pilgramage/wudu etc.

I'm seriously getting sick and tired of this . So let's make it short . The signs ordering to follow the prophet and in turn tell that there is a nother kind of revelation are numerous . If you deny that , then YOU are the one being an apostate .

You have not mentioned one sign that authorizes another source of law besides the Quran. Not ONE.

I have already told you that you are the one who needs to convert to Islam, pal. Not me. I am a Muslim by the Quranic definition.

The people of Monotheism invite you to bring forth your proof if you speak the truth .

http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php

I didn't bother at first but apparently deeming whole nations destined to hellfire isn't something to pass as if it's nothing . They want to see your so called evidence in what you claim . So what's your answer ?

I've already suspected that you go there anyway to mention my points onto them.

So what you will do, is you will go to that website and tell them my arguments and then they will tell you how to respond and then I will respond here. That's fine with me. In an arabic forum, I will not be able to pass my points across efficiently as I would in an English forum.

Let me make it clear that this isn't the only forum that I spread the knowledge of Quran-Only Islam. I am on many forums, even the shia forums so I could show them the true path of Islam.

I do consider the Shia's and Sunnis deviant. And I do consider them disbelievers by the Quranic definition. They will recieve their punishments. And your argument from popularity for the LAST time is a fallacious one. So I don't want to hear it again. The fact that you keep commiting this fallacy means you are arrogant and reluctant to believe in truth.

I again will tell you that the Quran predicts that Islamic nation will abandon the Quran in 25:30 and I have already told you that your argument from popularity is fallacious. So you cannot keep saying that the whole Islamic nation cannot be wrong. I have given you Allah's word that they WILL be wrong and a logical reason to show that your argument is fallacious.

PLEASE read up on this. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

[Black Muslim]

So what you will do, is you will go to that website and tell them my arguments and then they will tell you how to respond and then I will respond here.

One shouldn't be ashamed to ask if he doesn't know what to say . You on the other hand ...

That's fine with me. In an arabic forum, I will not be able to pass my points across efficiently as I would in an English forum.

They can debate you in English and some of them can even do that in French . That's no excuse . If you don't want to come , then just say that . And here's what happened : I've been showing your twisted slanders AND answering them over there to show people how dangerous ignorance combined with arrogance can be . After a while , they adviced me to bring you to them , to somewhere that actually has rules for the flaw of conversations . And I'm not ashamed to say to somwhere where there are many who know better than I do .

Let me make it clear that this isn't the only forum that I spread the knowledge of Quran-Only Islam. I am on many forums, even the shia forums so I could show them the true path of Islam.

Then may you carry your sin along with theirs . Bragging about how many places you spread blasphemous ideologies means nothing .

So let's get it clear , Quran orders us in numerous signs to obey the messenger in whatever he tells us to . That necessarily means what he teaches is revealed to him from the almighty . End of the line .

[mclinkin94]

One shouldn't be ashamed to ask if he doesn't know what to say . You on the other hand ...

But you haven't shown where in the Quran.

Tell you what. I will give you an offer to win this debate! Just a simple verse is all I ask.

Give ME one verse that authorizes another source of law besides the Quran and you win this debate. Simple enough?

They can debate you in English and some of them can even do that in French . That's no excuse . If you don't want to come , then just say that . And here's what happened : I've been showing your twisted slanders AND answering them over there to show people how dangerous ignorance combined with arrogance can be . After a while , they adviced me to bring you to them , to somewhere that actually has rules for the flaw of conversations . And I'm not ashamed to say to somwhere where there are many who know better than I do .

I'll get there soon and I will post there. 

For now, you haven't at all refuted any of my points on how the Quran is the only source of law and that there is no room for the sunnah.

All you have to do is show me where in the Quran are we required to believe in the Sunnah. So far, these are your failed attempts:

1.) Obey the messenger--I have discussed how this does not make another source of law besides the Quran so go read my argument
2.) The messenger explains things--I have discussed how this does not make another source of law besides the Quran--the Prophet explains through the Quran!

Let me make it clear that this isn't the only forum that I spread the knowledge of Quran-Only Islam. I am on many forums, even the shia forums so I could show them the true path of Islam.

Then may you carry your sin along with theirs . Bragging about how many places you spread blasphemous ideologies means nothing .

Great, just letting you know that you are not the only one here who I am discussing this with. I will get to the site you want me to debate in very soon.

So let's get it clear , Quran orders us in numerous signs to obey the messenger in whatever he tells us to . That necessarily means what he teaches is revealed to him from the almighty . End of the line .

I have already explained this. But, to make the point even clearer, here is the summary.

Again to summarize my explanation:

He who listens to the messenger listens to what the messenger propagates. By listening to the messenger people listen to what God has revealed on him and by obeying those injunctions which are delivered by the messenger the people indirectly obey Allah as well, as it is Allah Himself, who has given that teaching to his selected emissary. That is why it is stated in the Qur’an:

"Whoever obeys the messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them." (4:80)

From the above  Qur’anic evidence it is clearly established that obedience to the messenger is not obedience to his personal orders but to the divine laws that have been revealed on him, and that Allah and his messenger are not two separate obedience but it is a term which stands for one single source of divine law and obedience.

What was revealed to the messenger. What did the Quran tell us was revealed to the messenger? Did the Quran say there is another source of law besides the Quran that was revealed to the messenger? We both know the answer to that is NO.

So to obey the messenger is to obey the Quran. To obey the Quran is to obey Allah. Therefore to obey the messenger is to obey Allah.

Here are the logical premises:

1.) To obey the messenger means to obey the message that was revealed to him
2.) The only message that was revealed to the messenger is the Quran
3.) Therefore, to obey the messenger means to obey the Quran.

You agree with premise 1 but you disagree with premise 2. Once you agree with premise 2, the conclusion follows whether you like it or not! This is a deductive argument, if the premises are true, the conclusion necessarily follows with absolutely no doubt whatsoever. 

Now, I have ruthlessly defended premise 2. I've given you the challenge earlier in this post to show me ONE verse that makes another source of law or revelation to mankind besides the Quran! Once you do that my logical argument fails on itself and I will become a Sunni Muslim. If not, I will remain a Quranist.

I know there is no such verse in the QUran that authorizes another source of law besides the Quran. So you have to accept premise 2 thereby accepting the argument.

Not only that I have presented clear verses that the Quran is the revelation to mankind given to Muhammad, the only source of law and that no other revelation to mankind was given!!! 

[Black Muslim]

Tell you what. I will give you an offer to win this debate! Just a simple verse is all I ask.

Give ME one verse that authorizes another source of law besides the Quran and you win this debate. Simple enough?

Keep your puny offer to yourself . It's a matter of evidence and proof . Aside from the numerous signs which I'll mention at the end of this , here's a story told to us by Quran .

2:142 The foolish among the people will say, "What has turned them away from their qiblah, which they used to face?" Say, "To Allah belongs the east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a straight path." 2:143 And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful. 2:144 We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

So where in Quran , and Quran ALONE , does it tell Muslims to pray toward the Aqsa Masjid ? Don't tire yourself , you won't find any . Going from this point , why did Muslims pray toward Alaqsa while Quran didn't tell them to ? Why did the prophet pray toward Alaqsa ? Will you go so low as to claim this sign is fabricated ? Or maybe you'll claim that the prophet did something in religion that Allah didn't tell him to do ? Seeing how low you've already gone I won't be surprised , but if we think good of you then that's where the next point in line comes . So let's suppose you take your eyes away from the numerous signs ordering us to obey the messenger , let's suppose you try to explain them with your typical acrobatic methods while they're clear as day , this sign doesn't give you any room to do so . Either you accuse the prophet of innovation in religion - And that's flat out "Kufr" - or admit that there is another source of law along with the noble Quran which the noble Quran itself tells us to follow . And these are some of those signs :

((يـا أيـها الذين آمـنوا أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول ولا تبطلوا أعمالكم))
((من يطع الرسول فقد أطاع الله ومن تولى فما أرسلناك عليهم حفيظاً))
((وما آتاكم الرسول فخذوه وما نهاكم عنه فانتهوا واتقوا الله إن الله شديد العقاب))
((وما كان لمؤمن ولا مؤمنة إذا قضى الله ورسوله أمراً أن يكون لهم الخيرة من أمرهم ومن يعص الله ورسوله فقد ضل ضلالاً مبينا))
((فلا وربك لا يؤمنون حتى يحكموك فيما شجر بينهم ثم لا يجدوا في أنفسهم حرجا مما قضيت ويسلموا تسليماً))
((إنما كان قول المؤمنين إذا دعوا إلى الله ورسوله ليحكم بينهم أن يقولوا سمعنا وأطعنا وأولئك هم المفلحون))
((ولو تقوّل علينا بعض الأقاويل * لأخذنا منه باليمين * ثم لقطعنا منه الوتين * فما منكم من أحد عنه حاجزين))
((وأنزلنا إليك الذكر لتبين للناس ما نزل إليهم ولعلهم يتفكرون))
((وما أنزلنا عليك الكتاب إلا لتبين لهم الذي اختلفوا فيه وهدى ورحمة لقوم يؤمنون))
((لقد مَنَّ الله على المؤمنين إذ بعث فيهم رسولاً من أنفسهم يتلو عليهم آياته ويزكيهم ويعلمهم الكتاب والحكمة وإن كانوا من قبل لفي ضلال مبين))
((فإن تنازعتم في شيء فردوه إلى الله والرسول إن كنتم تؤمنون بالله واليوم الآخر))

In coming : More rants and acrobatic displays .

[mclinkin94]

Tell you what. I will give you an offer to win this debate! Just a simple verse is all I ask.

Give ME one verse that authorizes another source of law besides the Quran and you win this debate. Simple enough?

Keep your puny offer to yourself . It's a matter of evidence and proof . Aside from the numerous signs which I'll mention at the end of this , here's a story told to us by Quran .

Well, I'm waiting. No verse in the Quran authorizes another source of law/revelation given to Muhammad to mankind. You can easily prove me wrong by just listing one verse. Let's get to it.

2:142 The foolish among the people will say, "What has turned them away from their qiblah, which they used to face?" Say, "To Allah belongs the east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a straight path." 2:143 And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful. 2:144 We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

So where in Quran , and Quran ALONE , does it tell Muslims to pray toward the Aqsa Masjid ? Don't tire yourself , you won't find any . Going from this point , why did Muslims pray toward Alaqsa while Quran didn't tell them to ? Why did the prophet pray toward Alaqsa ? Will you go so low as to claim this sign is fabricated ? Or maybe you'll claim that the prophet did something in religion that Allah didn't tell him to do ? Seeing how low you've already gone I won't be surprised , but if we think good of you then that's where the next point in line comes .

When we read 2:143-144 we indeed learn of a change of Qibla by God. However, the exact details of this change and the exact location of the previous Qibla does not affect us in any way when we come to observe the Salat. To observe the Salat, we need to know the Qibla which God assigned to us and not to previous people. The Qibla which applies to us is given in 2:144, it is the Masjid Al-Haram. It is important here to remind ourselves of the correct meaning of the Quran being “fully detailed”.
Fully details does not mean all historic events are fully detailed, but only what related to the message of the Quran and the law of God. When a professor says the textbook has everything you need to know--you know that he is referring to everything you need to know for the class, not everything you need to do for life.

It is also necessary to analyse the verses of the change of Qibla more closely:

[2:143] We thus made you a worthy nation so that you would be witnesses over the people, and the messenger would be a witness over you, and We did not appoint the Qiblah which you were on except to know who follows the messenger and who would turn back on their heels. It was indeed a great issue, but not for those who are guided by God, and God would never allow your faith to be wasted. God is Benevolent and Merciful towards the people.

With the words: “We did not appoint the Qiblah which you were on except to …..” we are told of a previous Qibla which God appointed, however we are not told if this Qibla was appointed specifically to Muhammad, or if it was appointed before the time of Muhammad and when Muhammad came it was the Qibla being followed. The words in 2:143 do not say “We did not appoint FOR YOU the Qiblah which you were on except to …..” As a result, the test of who follows the messenger, could be speaking about a previous people and their messenger.

When we read the words of the following verse the matter becomes clearer:

[2:144] We have seen you turning your face about the sky, thus, We now assign you to a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Masjid Al-Haram.

1- The question here is if God appointed for Muhammad a previous Qibla through inspiration, as the claim above states, then why would Muhammad be turning his face around the sky in search of a Qibla to follow?

The state of Muhammad being unsure which Qibla to follow is evidence that he never received inspiration from God prior to the revelation of 2:144 about a specific Qibla. It follows that all the Qibla’s which were appointed by God previously were appointed before the time of Muhammad.

2- The second question is that if God appointed a previous Qibla for Muhammad, to test his people as to who will follow the messenger, then it would not be possible for Muhammad, the servant of God, to reject it or have aversion to it.

However, the words “We now assign you to a Qiblah that is pleasing to you” indicate that the previous Qibla/s were not pleasing for the prophet. Would a previous Qibla inspired to Muhammad from God (as the above claim states) not be pleasing to Muhammad?

Once again, these words confirm that the previous Qibla’s spoken of, and which were previous to the appointment of the Masjid Al-Haram, were not appointed specifically for Muhammad but were appointed at a previous time and for previous people.

These previous Qibla’s, which the prophet was undecided between and thus turning his head in the sky, belonged to the previous people of the book. The Prophet was turning his head undecided between several Qibla’s because the previous people had more than one Qibla as we read in the following verse:

[2:145] Even if you were to produce to those who have been given the scripture every kind of miracle, they will not follow your Qiblah. Nor will you follow their Qiblah. They do not even follow each others' Qiblah and if you follow their wishes, after the knowledge that has come to you, then you would be among the transgressors.

To sum up, the evidence from the above verses indicate that Muhammad did not receive a previous Qibla from God. However, even if he did receive such inspiration, this information is not required by us to practice Islam. For us, our Qibla is the Masjid Al-Haram. Any information of any previous Qibla is only of historic relevance.

As a result, the above claim that we could not follow Islam by following the Quran alone is a false claim.

There are biblical references to the Qiblah if you want--ask me if you want to see them.

In the Quran we know that God appointed previous Qiblah's for other people (as in 10:87) we can say that some of the Qiblah's that were practiced could have been from God, but we can also accept the possibility that some of them may have been man-made. What matters is that the Quran tells us that each people had their own Qiblah as shown below. As a result, in the early years when the prophet received the command to observe the Salat, he was uncertain as to which Qiblah to follow. This verse gives the impression of someone who is not able to make up their mind as to which Qiblah to face. The indecision indicates the plurality of the choice (of Qiblah's), if there was only one Qiblah there would be no indecision. The verse also indicates that the indecision was more of a reluctance to follow other people's Qiblah rather than being a problem of establishing one's positional direction. This is confirmed by the words : "We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you". The words "pleasing to you" indicate that prior to that there was something that was displeasing the prophet. If the prophet received a Qiblah inspiration from Allah, he wouldn't find it displeasing.

 

So let's suppose you take your eyes away from the numerous signs ordering us to obey the messenger 

I've already explained and put up logical premises defending my point. If you disagree with any of my premises let me know and we will discuss.

In coming : More rants and acrobatic displays

I'm very interested on what you mean by acrobatic explanations and acrobatic displays.

Are you saying that analyzing something very closely (like I have been doing), forming logical arguments and critical reflection of the Quran is an invalid methodology?

Analyzing something in depth to explain it (like I did with Quran 2:143) is not some kind of invalid method.

In fact, the Quran wants us to ponder/reflect on it:

[This is] a blessed Book which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], that they might reflect upon its verses and that those of understanding would be reminded. [38:29]

Critically analyzing something is not something invalid as explained by the Quran.

[Black Muslim]

When we read 2:143-144 we indeed learn of a change of Qibla by God. However, the exact details of this change and the exact location of the previous Qibla does not affect us in any way when we come to observe the Salat. To observe the Salat, we need to know the Qibla which God assigned to us and not to previous people.

It doesn't matter if it has anything to do with us right now or if it doesn't . Muslims used to pray toward Aqsa . That necessarily means it was an order from Allah . Otherwise , you'd be accusing the prophet himself of disobeying the lord .

It is important here to remind ourselves of the correct meaning of the Quran being “fully detailed”.
Fully details does not mean all historic events are fully detailed, but only what related to the message of the Quran and the law of God.

That's quiet laughable because there's a load of things you CAN'T understand and perform with Quran alone . And it's a futile attempt to distract the actualy issue here . Again , Muslims prayed toward Aqsa

2:142 The foolish among the people will say, "What has turned them away from their qiblah, which they used to face?" Say, "To Allah belongs the east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a straight path.

Meaning they were ordered to . No other possibility . The next sign says so too .

2:143 And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.

Allah is the one who ordered them to pray toward it . And then

2:144 We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

And it's irrelevant to the current case that we currently pray toward Makkah . The case here is that there was another source of revelation along with Quran . Go with your ridiculous ideologies all you want , you can't deny such a simple and self evident fact . Wither it's failure in grasping the Arabic language or basic logic , it doesn't change a thing . And these three signs are some of many .

It is also necessary to analyse the verses of the change of Qibla more closely:

And as said , incoming acrobatic displays .

With the words: “We did not appoint the Qiblah which you were on except to …..” we are told of a previous Qibla which God appointed, however we are not told if this Qibla was appointed specifically to Muhammad, or if it was appointed before the time of Muhammad and when Muhammad came it was the Qibla being followed. The words in 2:143 do not say “We did not appoint FOR YOU the Qiblah which you were on except to …..” As a result, the test of who follows the messenger, could be speaking about a previous people and their messenger.

I'm actually surprised how far you can go to justify your blasphemous ideology . As usual , instead of taking the direct and clear meaning , you decide to hide behind "Maybe it's a test to a previous messenger" ! Even if it was appointed before the prophet to previous religions , that doesn't help you in any way . Each messenger is sent to his people and only prophet Muhammad was sent to mankind . So if Muslims used to pray toward Alaqsa , then it MUST have been an order from Allah to them . You're twisting the signs in their clarity to the degree of forcing them out of context !

And here's a lesson in basic Arabic O one who apparently fails in his lessons . These are the signs in their original language

((سَيَقُولُ السُّفَهَاءُ مِنَ النَّاسِ مَا وَلَّاهُمْ عَنْ قِبْلَتِهِمُ الَّتِي كَانُوا عَلَيْهَا ۚ قُلْ لِلَّهِ الْمَشْرِقُ وَالْمَغْرِبُ ۚ يَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ ))

The foolish will say about Muslims "What made them change the direction of their prayer ?" . Streching it to previous people in this context is absurd and insane .

((وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا ۗ وَمَا جَعَلْنَا الْقِبْلَةَ الَّتِي كُنْتَ عَلَيْهَا إِلَّا لِنَعْلَمَ مَنْ يَتَّبِعُ الرَّسُولَ مِمَّنْ يَنْقَلِبُ عَلَىٰ عَقِبَيْهِ ۚ وَإِنْ كَانَتْ لَكَبِيرَةً إِلَّا عَلَى الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللَّهُ ۗ وَمَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيُضِيعَ إِيمَانَكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ بِالنَّاسِ لَرَءُوفٌ رَحِيمٌ ))

Here it says that this qibla is appointed to the prophet himself along with the rest of Muslism . It says "Kunta"="كنتَ" . That's a singular male object directed at the one whom Quran is revealed to which is with no doubt prophet Muhammad peace upon him .

1- The question here is if God appointed for Muhammad a previous Qibla through inspiration, as the claim above states, then why would Muhammad be turning his face around the sky in search of a Qibla to follow?

The state of Muhammad being unsure which Qibla to follow is evidence that he never received inspiration from God prior to the revelation of 2:144 about a specific Qibla. It follows that all the Qibla’s which were appointed by God previously were appointed before the time of Muhammad.

2- The second question is that if God appointed a previous Qibla for Muhammad, to test his people as to who will follow the messenger, then it would not be possible for Muhammad, the servant of God, to reject it or have aversion to it.

How delusional ! For the first point o stingy one , prophet Muhammad peace upon him was eager for an order of prayer toward Alharam . That doesn't deny the fact that he was ordered to pray toward Alaqsa . Saying that he was searching for a place to pray toward is an innovation of your own . As for the second point , well , it is also an innovation of your own . On what planet do you take the meaning that the prophet rejected the order of Allah to pray toward Alaqsa ? A Muslim may find an order of Allah difficult but he obeys and doesn't resent it because he knows that what he doesn't know , Allah knows . The wisdom of the lord surpasses by default that of the entire creation .

(( كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِتَالُ وَهُوَ كُرْهٌ لَكُمْ ۖ وَعَسَىٰ أَنْ تَكْرَهُوا شَيْئًا وَهُوَ خَيْرٌ لَكُمْ ۖ وَعَسَىٰ أَنْ تُحِبُّوا شَيْئًا وَهُوَ شَرٌّ لَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ وَأَنْتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ ))

2:216 Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not.

These previous Qibla’s, which the prophet was undecided between and thus turning his head in the sky, belonged to the previous people of the book. The Prophet was turning his head undecided between several Qibla’s because the previous people had more than one Qibla as we read in the following verse:

[2:145] Even if you were to produce to those who have been given the scripture every kind of miracle, they will not follow your Qiblah. Nor will you follow their Qiblah. They do not even follow each others' Qiblah and if you follow their wishes, after the knowledge that has come to you, then you would be among the transgressors.

Are you serious ? Did you actually notice the number of the sign ? It coems right after this one

2:144 We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

So AFTER Allah ordered the prophet to pray toward Alharam , the stubborn of Jews and Christians wouldn't follow the qiblah of Muslims - by entering Islam of course - nor Muslims should follow the qiblah of Jews and Christians anymore . It doesn't deny the fact that Muslims did in the past .

In the end , this servant needing to Allah has presented what he has and did what he's capable of . And if I can't show you the error of your ways - the DANGEROUS error of your ways - then maybe someone who knows better than me can . You agreed to show up . So go ahead and show them your "True Islam" that you brag about spreading in MANY places outside of here .

[mclinkin94]

It doesn't matter if it has anything to do with us right now or if it doesn't . Muslims used to pray toward Aqsa . That necessarily means it was an order from Allah . Otherwise , you'd be accusing the prophet himself of disobeying the lord .

No. The prophet was just told to pray in a congregation. what direction? He wasn't told. Its obvious people are not going to pray in opposite directions.

2:142 The foolish among the people will say, "What has turned them away from their qiblah, which they used to face?" Say, "To Allah belongs the east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a straight path.

Meaning they were ordered to . No other possibility . The next sign says so too .

The Qiblah they used to face was not assigned from Allah. It was the direction the prophet chose to pray in a congregation. As the context of these verses show, the prophet was not given a direct Qiblah from Allah, rather, he just followed one until this verse came about.

2:143 And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.

Allah is the one who ordered them to pray toward it . And then 

Yes.

With the words: “We did not appoint the Qiblah which you were on except to …..” we are told of a previous Qibla which God appointed, however we are not told if this Qibla was appointed specifically to Muhammad, or if it was appointed before the time of Muhammad and when Muhammad came it was the Qibla being followed. The words in 2:143 do not say “We did not appoint FOR YOU the Qiblah which you were on except to …..” As a result, the test of who follows the messenger, could be speaking about a previous people and their messenger.

When we read the words of the following verse the matter becomes clearer:

[2:144] We have seen you turning your face about the sky, thus, We now assign you to a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Masjid Al-Haram.

This verse makes it clear that the prophet was indecisive as to which Qiblah to follow and he was not pleased with the direction/Qiblah that he made people pray.

So:
1.) If the prophet received inspiration from Allah as to a direct Qiblah, would he not be pleased with it?
2.) If the prophet received inspiration from Allah to a direct Qiblah, would he be turning his face to the sky looking for a Qiblah to follow?

I want to let you know, that I am interested in your translation. Personally, I never interpreted the verse the way you translate it. I think though the Quran is clear that the prophet did not get a direct Qiblah from Allah and he was told to just pray. The rest was up to him (the direction of prayer, the length etc.).

2:144 We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

And it's irrelevant to the current case that we currently pray toward Makkah . The case here is that there was another source of revelation along with Quran . Go with your ridiculous ideologies all you want , you can't deny such a simple and self evident fact . Wither it's failure in grasping the Arabic language or basic logic , it doesn't change a thing . And these three signs are some of many . [/quote]


So are you suggesting a contradiction between the Quran saying it is fully detailed and then you saying it is not? Was Allah lying when he said the Quran is fully detailed and has everything you need to know? I'm interested as to how you reconcile these clear verses that the Quran has all the information for Islam with your view that the Quran doesn't. How is it possible to reconcile these two. Show me.

I'm telling you there is no other source of revelation TO MANKIND along with the Quran.

Even though this has nothing to do with the verses we are discussing, if you have noticed, I have always said "To Mankind" when I say there is no other source of revelation. I do not deny that the prophet relieved personal inspiration from Allah. Like the prophet may have asked Allah which direction to pray in congregation, and Allah may have just said--"whichever you chose, it doesn't matter--just make sure you all pray in a congregation on Friday prayer facing a certain Qiblah". Etc. Etc.

For the issue of the prophet receiving inspiration from God outside the Quran, I do not doubt that nor have I ever denied it! How can we deny it when it is confirmed in the Quran?

God indeed inspires to His messengers information that is outside the scripture. One example we have is when God inspired some information to Muhammad about some of his wives (66:3). The details of this information are not given in the Quran.
God inspires His messengers all the time, but that is not all, God inspires ordinary people and not just messengers.
We have the example in 28:7 of how God inspired the mother of Moses to throw her baby son in the river and not worry.
So there is no problem whatsoever in accepting inspiration given to Muhammad which is not in the Quran. But we must be focused on the fact that none of this information relates to our practice of Islam today nor is required by us.

So when I ask for another source of law TO mankind besides the Quran, I am not speaking about Muhammad's personal revelations! I am speaking about the ones meant for Mankind--The Quran and the Quran ONLY.

It is also necessary to analyse the verses of the change of Qibla more closely:

And as said , incoming acrobatic displays .

If verse analysis is acrobatic to you, then it's no wonder why you don't accept the Quran for what it says. If you have a problem with the way the verse is interpreted (being that the prophet never received a specific Qiblah), all you need to do is list arguments.

I'm actually surprised how far you can go to justify your blasphemous ideology . As usual , instead of taking the direct and clear meaning , you decide to hide behind "Maybe it's a test to a previous messenger" ! Even if it was appointed before the prophet to previous religions , that doesn't help you in any way . Each messenger is sent to his people and only prophet Muhammad was sent to mankind . So if Muslims used to pray toward Alaqsa , then it MUST have been an order from Allah to them . You're twisting the signs in their clarity to the degree of forcing them out of context !

You know that is not what I did. I said it must have not been given to the prophet directly because if it was, the next series of verses don't make sense. So from the context, we conclude that it was for the previous messengers.

The order from Allah would be simply to pray. The rest is up to you. Allah just wants you to pray. He never assigned a Qibla as made evidence. Like I said, all you have to do is debunk my arguments supporting the fact that Allah never assigned a specific Qiblah to Muhammad, until this verse.

And here's a lesson in basic Arabic O one who apparently fails in his lessons . These are the signs in their original language

((سَيَقُولُ السُّفَهَاءُ مِنَ النَّاسِ مَا وَلَّاهُمْ عَنْ قِبْلَتِهِمُ الَّتِي كَانُوا عَلَيْهَا ۚ قُلْ لِلَّهِ الْمَشْرِقُ وَالْمَغْرِبُ ۚ يَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ ))

The foolish will say about Muslims "What made them change the direction of their prayer ?" . Streching it to previous people in this context is absurd and insane .

((وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا ۗ وَمَا جَعَلْنَا الْقِبْلَةَ الَّتِي كُنْتَ عَلَيْهَا إِلَّا لِنَعْلَمَ مَنْ يَتَّبِعُ الرَّسُولَ مِمَّنْ يَنْقَلِبُ عَلَىٰ عَقِبَيْهِ ۚ وَإِنْ كَانَتْ لَكَبِيرَةً إِلَّا عَلَى الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللَّهُ ۗ وَمَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيُضِيعَ إِيمَانَكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ بِالنَّاسِ لَرَءُوفٌ رَحِيمٌ ))

Here it says that this qibla is appointed to the prophet himself along with the rest of Muslism . It says "Kunta"="كنتَ" . That's a singular male object directed at the one whom Quran is revealed to which is with no doubt prophet Muhammad peace upon him .

Was I rejecting that this verse wasn't speaking to the prophet?

Let me say this in english to make it more clear.

"I did not appoint the Qiblah which you were on except to test the messenger's people.  "

The word "you" means it is directed to the one reading this sentence. This was not my argument. My argument was, the Qiblah that the prophet Muhammad was on was NOT given to him directly from Allah, rather it was given to another messenger and the prophet Muhammad just followed it.

Also notice how the sentence did NOT say:

"I did not appoint the Qiblah to you except to test your people"

Why did the Quran say "messenger's people" instead of "your people". And why didn't the Quran say that the Qiblah was appointed to the prophet, rather it said the Qiblah that the prophet is on and then it changes the subject from "You" to "messengers".

1- The question here is if God appointed for Muhammad a previous Qibla through inspiration, as the claim above states, then why would Muhammad be turning his face around the sky in search of a Qibla to follow?

The state of Muhammad being unsure which Qibla to follow is evidence that he never received inspiration from God prior to the revelation of 2:144 about a specific Qibla. It follows that all the Qibla’s which were appointed by God previously were appointed before the time of Muhammad.

2- The second question is that if God appointed a previous Qibla for Muhammad, to test his people as to who will follow the messenger, then it would not be possible for Muhammad, the servant of God, to reject it or have aversion to it.

How delusional ! For the first point o stingy one , prophet Muhammad peace upon him was eager for an order of prayer toward Alharam . That doesn't deny the fact that he was ordered to pray toward Alaqsa . Saying that he was searching for a place to pray toward is an innovation of your own . As for the second point , well , it is also an innovation of your own . On what planet do you take the meaning that the prophet rejected the order of Allah to pray toward Alaqsa ? A Muslim may find an order of Allah difficult but he obeys and doesn't resent it because he knows that what he doesn't know , Allah knows . The wisdom of the lord surpasses by default that of the entire creation .

That is not what the verse stated. I don't know where you made this up that the prophet was eager for a specific order of a Qiblah towards Alharam! The prophet was eager for a direct commandment from Allah at a specific Qibla as the context of the verse shows.

The context of the verse tell us that the prophet was:

1.) Indecisive as to which Qibla to follow and searching for a Qiblah (would he be indecisive if Allah gave him a direct Qiblah to follow)
2.) Displeased with the current state of not having a specific Qiblah (would he be displeased if Allah gave him a direct Qiblah to follow).

As for my second point, i have no idea what you were trying to say in your refutation! If Allah gave the prophet a Qiblah previously, the prophet would not be displeased with it.

These previous Qibla’s, which the prophet was undecided between and thus turning his head in the sky, belonged to the previous people of the book. The Prophet was turning his head undecided between several Qibla’s because the previous people had more than one Qibla as we read in the following verse:

[2:145] Even if you were to produce to those who have been given the scripture every kind of miracle, they will not follow your Qiblah. Nor will you follow their Qiblah. They do not even follow each others' Qiblah and if you follow their wishes, after the knowledge that has come to you, then you would be among the transgressors.

Are you serious ? Did you actually notice the number of the sign ? It coems right after this one

2:144 We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

So AFTER Allah ordered the prophet to pray toward Alharam , the stubborn of Jews and Christians wouldn't follow the qiblah of Muslims - by entering Islam of course - nor Muslims should follow the qiblah of Jews and Christians anymore . It doesn't deny the fact that Muslims did in the past .

In the end , this servant needing to Allah has presented what he has and did what he's capable of . And if I can't show you the error of your ways - the DANGEROUS error of your ways - then maybe someone who knows better than me can . You agreed to show up . So go ahead and show them your "True Islam" that you brag about spreading in MANY places outside of here .

[/quote]

I think you missed the entire point. The entire point was that the people of the scripture had multiple Qiblas and that is why the prophet didn't know exactly which Qibla to follow. I do agree that the verse 2:145 was speaking about the denial of the jews/Christians to follow the new Qibla after the prophet was assigned a Qibla, but that had nothing to do with my argument. It looks like you misread it. All I was saying is that the people of the scripture had multiple Qiblah's as shown by "They do not even follow each others' Qiblah".

To further prove my point, there is a Quranic reference to another Qibla that the people of the scripture were given! Quran 10:87!!!

the Quran tells us that each people had their own Qiblah as shown below. As a result, in the early years when the prophet received the command to observe the Salat, he was uncertain as to which Qiblah to follow. This verse gives the impression of someone who is not able to make up their mind as to which Qiblah to face. The indecision indicates the plurality of the choice (of Qiblah's), if there was only one Qiblah there would be no indecision. The verse also indicates that the indecision was more of a reluctance to follow other people's Qiblah rather than being a problem of establishing one's positional direction. This is confirmed by the words : "We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you". The words "pleasing to you" indicate that prior to that there was something that was displeasing the prophet. If the prophet received a Qiblah inspiration from Allah, he wouldn't find it displeasing.

Your gross misinterpretation of this verse is absolutely frightening. Like I said, if you want to make a case for your own little translation--prove me and my analysis wrong.

[Black Muslim]

It ends here linckin . You clearly stop at nothing at all to justify your ideology . The truth seekers are good with one evidence , the stubborn and arrogant are not good with a thousand . Call it ad nonsense or whatever you want to call it . I did what I have to do . Who wants to believe will believe and who wants to disbelieve will disbelieve . I just had the duty of exposing you . As for changing your mind , if I can't , maybe someone else can . The people of Sunnah and the group take the noble Quran and the teachings of the prophet peace upon him as sources of law and ways of life . Wither you agree or not doesn't affect that the slightest bit . But once you attempt to spread Kufr among people , you will always find someone to expose it . And if you think claiming the majority of humanity is going to hell while hiding behind the "Ad garbage" you spam and the usual "I'm smart and open minded" nonsense is going to help you spread your so called "True Islam" , think again . You're just the black sheep .

Black , out ( No pun intended ) .

[mclinkin94]

It ends here linckin . You clearly stop at nothing at all to justify your ideology . The truth seekers are good with one evidence , the stubborn and arrogant are not good with a thousand . Call it ad nonsense or whatever you want to call it . I did what I have to do . Who wants to believe will believe and who wants to disbelieve will disbelieve . I just had the duty of exposing you . As for changing your mind , if I can't , maybe someone else can . The people of Sunnah and the group take the noble Quran and the teachings of the prophet peace upon him as sources of law and ways of life . Wither you agree or not doesn't affect that the slightest bit . But once you attempt to spread Kufr among people , you will always find someone to expose it . And if you think claiming the majority of humanity is going to hell while hiding behind the "Ad garbage" you spam and the usual "I'm smart and open minded" nonsense is going to help you spread your so called "True Islam" , think again . You're just the black sheep .

Black , out ( No pun intended ) .

Well you can't seem to defend your position, so how is it justified? You just feel like your position is more intuitive even though the Quran has made it clear there is no other source of law besides it. In fact, you haven't once responded to my biggest argument:

"How can you reconcile a verse that says there is no source of law besides the Quran, with your ideology that there is"

^You should know that you cannot reconcile these verses therefore you should abandon your kufr.

As far as Quran 2:144, I have already broken the verse down and shown you that the prophet could have not received another qibla before--and you offered absolutely no response, you just restated your interpretation of the verse without defending it. I gave many reasons that show my case and you have not made a valid response.

Here are the reasons why to reject another source of law besides the Quran:

1.) The Quran is clear it is the only source of law, has details of everything
2.) The Quran has not mentioned another source of law
3.) We cannot believe in anything Islam related unless it is in the Quran (THIS book)
4.) There is no command in the Quran to follow anything besides it


You cannot seem to accept the true Islam. You are right:

"The truth seekers are good with al evidence"

Just as I am.

"The stubborn and arrogant are not good with a thousand evidence"

Just like you. Of all the Quranic verses that show the Quran is the only source of law, had details of everthing and that we aren't to follow anything unless it is in this BOOK.

Not only that on Quran 2:144, you completely destroyed its true meaning and you made an unjustified misinterpretation! It was freighting to see how much you can twist the Quran. The evidence on that verse is clear.

"I just had the duty of exposing you"

No I did. read Quran 45:6-7. IT exposes you and gives me the duty to warn you of a painful punishment for believing in anything unless it is in THIS book.


And as I had said before. I gave a challenge. The challenge was to show me ONE verse in the Quran that authorizes another source of law besides it. None were given, you gave one at around 2:144 and even your interpretation (which I've proved to be wrong) does not authorize another source of law for us besides the Quran as it is not relevant to us.

1- Was Muhammad given inspiration regarding a previous Qibla? According to you it is possible, to me the verse says it is not, but for the sake of arguments, I will temporarily agree with your interpretation.
2- Is this Qibla applicable to us today? No, our Qibla is given in 2:144
3- Do we need information about this previous Qibla in order to practice our religion? No
4- Does 2:143 justify the call to follow hadith? Never! Not in a million years!
We do not need these details to practice Islam, the Quran is clear that it is all we need to practice Islam. The fact still remains; the Quran is all we need for salvation. If you reject this fact then you are suggesting a contradiction between the Quran and your ideology.

As for the personal hadith of Muhammad, once again we are commanded very clearly not to follow it for the following reasons:

1- God commands us not to believe/follow any hadith other than the Quran (45:6)
2- God tells us that the Quran has all the details we need (6:114) and that nothing has been left out of the book (6:38). As a result, all what may have been inspired to Muhammad and which is not in the Quran is not part of our Islam today nor is required of us.
3- God commands us to use the Quran as the only source of law (6:114)
3- God tells us that the hadith is the fabrication of the devil (6:112)
4- God tells us that we are not accountable to what was given to those before us, which refutes the claim associated with the previous Qibla (on 2:144).

It is time for you to accept Allah and the Quran.


 

[Black Muslim]

I AM accepting Islam . You're the one rejecting it . I presented my evidence and you presented your flawed logic in understanding Quran and common sense . So I'll let people decide .

And just so it doesn't get to your head , I didn't stop because I can't answer your so called "evidence" , I stopped after being adviced not to waste time arguing about basic doctrine beliefs of Islam . I STILL believe you have a loose screw , I still believe in the noble Quran and the teachings of the prophet , I still believe that you're extremely ignorant , extremely arrogant , or extremely both .

Incoming "You don't make any solid argument ! You just ad home the great and honorable me !" ? Yes , this wasn't an argument , I'm just saying my opinion of a miserable low life such as yourself .

Incoming "You're rude !" ? Well for someone ( who doesn't just spam the disposals of the human body in his replies but rather deems all humanity except his puny and pathetic group of rejectors destined to hellfire ) you're the last one to talk about morals . Yes , I won't let you live that down . I'll keep holding it against you until the day when all are judged .

So keep following this blasphemous path you chose . Keep altering Islam to suit your desires and the desires of your western masters . If this insane arrogance you hold blinds you this much , then perhaps a shock or two about your so beloved masters and system as they fail miserably in the incoming days - Allah wills - will knock some sense into you .

[MuslimBoy]

As-Salamu Alaikum Brother Mclinkin, I am asking it just out of Curiousity that How many times you pray in a day? (We Muslims pray 5 times) :D

[mclinkin94]

I AM accepting Islam . You're the one rejecting it . I presented my evidence and you presented your flawed logic in understanding Quran and common sense . So I'll let people decide .

And just so it doesn't get to your head , I didn't stop because I can't answer your so called "evidence" , I stopped after being adviced not to waste time arguing about basic doctrine beliefs of Islam . I STILL believe you have a loose screw , I still believe in the noble Quran and the teachings of the prophet , I still believe that you're extremely ignorant , extremely arrogant , or extremely both .

Incoming "You don't make any solid argument ! You just ad home the great and honorable me !" ? Yes , this wasn't an argument , I'm just saying my opinion of a miserable low life such as yourself .

Incoming "You're rude !" ? Well for someone ( who doesn't just spam the disposals of the human body in his replies but rather deems all humanity except his puny and pathetic group of rejectors destined to hellfire ) you're the last one to talk about morals . Yes , I won't let you live that down . I'll keep holding it against you until the day when all are judged .

So keep following this blasphemous path you chose . Keep altering Islam to suit your desires and the desires of your western masters . If this insane arrogance you hold blinds you this much , then perhaps a shock or two about your so beloved masters and system as they fail miserably in the incoming days - Allah wills - will knock some sense into you .

You call my logic flawed with no evidence and you cannot defend your own nor refute mine--I'm not sure what kind of intellectual dishonesty this is.

And just so it doesn't get to your head , I didn't stop because I can't answer your so called "evidence" , I stopped after being adviced not to waste time arguing about basic doctrine beliefs of Islam . I STILL believe you have a loose screw , I still believe in the noble Quran and the teachings of the prophet , I still believe that you're extremely ignorant , extremely arrogant , or extremely both .

See that is exactly what someone who cannot offer a refutation would say in order to look good.  I believe you are arrogant and ignorant, but at least I provided evidence to show why.

Not only that I have given you a challenge and you have failed. Moreover, I have asked how you reconcile the clear verses that the Quran is fully detailed and has explanation of everything with your twisted kufr that it doesn't.

You do not believe in the Quran nor the actual teachings of the prophet.

Incoming "You're rude !" ? Well for someone ( who doesn't just spam the disposals of the human body in his replies but rather deems all humanity except his puny and pathetic group of rejectors destined to hellfire ) you're the last one to talk about morals . Yes , I won't let you live that down . I'll keep holding it against you until the day when all are judged .

I don't use rudeness as some kind of argument.  Never have.

You again use the appeal to popularity fallacy even though I have told you you cannot argue like that. Moreover, the Quran predicts that people will abandon the Quran in the future.  Like I said, I don't know what kind of dishonesty this is.

So keep following this blasphemous path you chose . Keep altering Islam to suit your desires and the desires of your western masters . If this insane arrogance you hold blinds you this much , then perhaps a shock or two about your so beloved masters and system as they fail miserably in the incoming days - Allah wills - will knock some sense into you

So much rhetoric, yet so little arguments.

It is so simple to prove your case, I asked for ONE verse that authorizes another source of law for us besides the Quran. No such verse was given. I asked you to reconcile the verse that the Quran is fully detailed and that we cannot follow anything unless it is in THIS book (quran) with your ideology.

In the end, this cheap method of trying to end the debate with pride does not give you any gain-none whatsoever. It is just your method of quitting without looking bad. We all know you quit because you failed to own up to your burden of proof when it comes to your ideology.  This is because no such proof exists in the Quran that supports your kufr. Yet, I have presented so many verses that satisfy my burden of proof in true-Islam--and you have offered absolutely no defense against these verses. But as I said, Intellectual dishonesty won't get you anywhere.

I will conclude with the verse that defeats your kufr completely:

Quran 45:6 These are God's revelations (Quran) that We recite to you truthfully. In which statement other than God and His revelations (Quran) do they believe?"

These are God's verses that get recited to you. In what statement other than these verses will you believe.

If I write a book and say "These are the sentences that I write to you, in what statement besides my sentences will you believe in?". Does this leave room for any other sentences outside of my book to believe in? Absolutely not! I said it clearly, THESE are my sentences that you Must believe in and you cannot believe in anything besides them!

 God says that these are his verses that he recites to you and that you cannot believe in anything besides them, BUT, you insist that we are to believe in the Sunnah (extra-Quranic revelation). How could any rational, intellectually honest person accept this. Was the Sunnah in these verses (Quran)? NO. You cannot believe in it, plain and simple.

So you could quit and leave with pride all you want. You need to know that you are a disbeliever and you will remain such until you open your heart to Allah.

[mclinkin94]

As-Salamu Alaikum Brother Mclinkin, I am asking it just out of Curiousity that How many times you pray in a day? (We Muslims pray 5 times) :D

We are only required to pray 3 times daily, anyone who says we are required for more is either ignorant or systematically rejecting Allah's verses.

I do pray my mandatory 3 prayer and I do pray the extra 2 prayers that the other Muslims do. I actually pray more than 5 times daily.

With every prayer, I pray an additional 2-4 quick prayers--especially at night.

There is no limit to how much you can pray to Allah--just recognize the extra prayers as non-mandatory. Just do your mandatory 3 and you are good.

These sect driven Muslims believe in the 5 pillars of Islam. This is the biggest lie. There should be like 200+ pillars of Islam. You break one pillar, commit one sin, you become a disbeliever until your repent.


I underlined the word "Muslims" in your statement because I have a hard time saying that someone is a 'submitter' if they systematically reject Allah's verses and follow the methodology given by the fabrication of hadiths. Any person who calls themselves a Muslim who is conscious of their arrogant rejection of the Quranic verses should rethink their position to Allah's eyes. Indeed they will have a painful punishment as Quran 45:6-8 states. And I do hope that the user [blackmuslim] would realize the extent of his dishonesty.

[ThatMuslimGuy]

These sect driven Muslims believe in the 5 pillars of Islam. This is the biggest lie. There should be like 200+ pillars of Islam. You break one pillar, commit one sin, you become a disbeliever until your repent.

You believe that if you commit one sin your a Kafir?