Creation from clay?

[Black Muslim]

http://creation.com/fraud-rediscovered

[QuranSearchCom]

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother "Black Muslim",

May Allah Almighty bless you for the link akhi.  This is to let brother Mclinkin that he's free to respond since I asked everyone to no longer discuss evolution here, because it always ends up a flood of posts, which could be very distracting to the participants who are students.

But since you posted it, akhi, then I'll have to give the other side a fair chance.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[Black Muslim]

I didn't post it willing to start it over again . I'm just telling him about the fraud . He told us that he sees these creatures alive . I think the pictures are the real thing . But what heackel has been faking is not .

[Sama]

I didn't post it willing to start it over again . I'm just telling him about the fraud . He told us that he sees these creatures alive . I think the pictures are the real thing . But what heackel has been faking is not .

salam alaikum
http://www.gawaher.com/topic/740161-the-biogenetic-law-the-recapitulation-misconception/

[mclinkin94]

http://creation.com/fraud-rediscovered

I was hoping for a more Quranic evolutionary discussion rather than the science.

In the article you have mentioned, you are taking this invalid, discredited theory and making it as if it is part of modern evolutionary biology.

Many people forget that Darwin was only the first one who presented evidence for evolution. His work does not reflect modern evolutionary biology. This is because he did not understand concepts such as Genetics, molecular biology and other biotechnological methods to gather evolutionary evidence. Darwin would be like Mendel (the father of Genetics). Both of them made mistakes. Imagine, you putting the whole science of Genetics as being false because mended made some mistakes. Modern Genetics is not entirely based off of Mendel although Mendel provided the basis for our genetic study. The same thing goes with Darwin and evolution. Attacking the scientists themselves does not give you an argumentative gain. The evidence is what we should be attacking. The fact that you think that Allah just pulled some creatures out of a magic hat is rather insulting to Allah. As Allah is the ingenious creator. And not only that the Quran has informed us that humans were created in stages and grew from the earth progressively like a plant. A plant is something you plant in the ground, leave it alone and provide its sustenance, and it will grow through a series of successive stages. That is exactly how a human grew from the earth progressively. Allah provided the Earth sustenance and planted us (the first cell) and we grew through successive stages. It does NOT fit with your understanding that Allah randomly pulled humans out of a magic hat and put them on the Earth, rather, humans grew FROM the earth as plants. And if you notice the two verses are very close to each other on the same Surah. Humans were created in stages--few verses later--humans grew out of the earth like plants. It is clear what message Allah wanted us to get. But we are discussing the science now.

Everyone knows that Haekel was a Fraud, but his work does not undermine the modern evolutionary scientific fact. What you are doing is you are presenting one fraud and you are saying that this means that the foundation of evolutionary biology is therefore fraudulent.

I've gotten the following form talk-origins. If you have any evolutionary problems, this is the website to refer to before mentioning it here. These so called "theories" against evolution have all been dealt with.

Evolutionary theory is not founded on Haeckel's observations or theories. Haeckel's work was discredited in the 19 th century, and has not been relevant to biology since the rediscovery of Mendel's laws of genetics. That the biogenetic law is false has been the consensus of biologists for over 100 years, and developmental biologists have been working constructively to provide alternative explanations, which have so far all been evolutionary in nature.

The similarities between vertebrate embryos are real. We must distinguish between observations of those similarities and hypotheses about their causes. The similarities are not in doubt; there are worthwhile studies of the degree and timing of the similarities, but none that question their overall existence. What Wells has described is one hypothesis about the cause, Haeckel's biogenetic law, which failed early and spectacularly. He has not addressed any modern hypotheses, nor has he provided a better alternative.

Evidence for common descent lies in the unity of form and process. We do not use Haeckel's outmoded, invalid mechanism to argue for evolution. Instead, we look at the marvelous convergence of disparate organisms on common principles: all animals use the same genes to define regions of their bodies, all vertebrates build their faces by unlikely rearrangements of odd pharyngeal protrusions, and even tailless mammals like us have to start with tailed embryos. The best explanation for these phenomena is that they are a consequence of a common heritage.
-----

 I have taken multiple Animal development courses and currently, I am working on a Ph.D in Microbiology. In those Animal development courses, you actually get to see vertebrate and invertebrate embryos. If you actually are skeptical of the similarities, I invite you to see them for yourself.

[QuranSearchCom]

I was hoping for a more Quranic evolutionary discussion rather than the science.

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Mclinkin94,

This is a topic that I wanted to debate you on, and I guess we could start it now .  I of course come with complete humbleness and respect to you and to everyone, especially that I am the owner of this blog.  So please, feel free to speak your mind freely.  I only stopped a few threads about this subject in the past, because I didn't want it to be distracting to the young students that we have here in both college and high school.  I don't mind debates at all as long as they don't become compulsive and out of control and devouring to one's time and personal life.

Having said that, I would like to directly engage you by inviting you to visit: www.answering-christianity.com/cloning.htm.  Here are some of the reasons, from many, why evolution is completely false according to Islam.  First, when I say "evolution", I mean us becoming humans from animals.  This is completely rejected in the Holy Quran for the following reasons:



The Popular Belief of Multiplying is Wrong:

1-  Did you know that according to the Holy Quran Itself, humans weren't created from just sexual intercourse from Adam and Eve, and certainly not from their immediate children having sex with each others?  In other words, the popular belief that Adam and Eve had offsprings through their marriage and sex, and their offsprings (siblings) had sex with each others and had other humans, and those other humans had sex and multiplied into other humans, and those other humans had sex and multiplied and so on.....  This popular belief is wrong! 

2-  According to the Holy Quran, Allah Almighty performed what we call today CLONING from Adam and Eve's immediate children, peace be upon all of the righteous ones from among all of that family.  I've written about this long before you joined this blog in the past at:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,842.msg2547.html#msg2547

The Noble Verse that I analyzed in great details is:

‏7:172 واذ اخذ ربك من بني ادم من ظهورهم ذريتهم واشهدهم على انفسهم الست بربكم قالوا بلى شهدنا ان تقولوا يوم القيامة انا كنا عن هذا غافلين 

[007:172]  When thy Lord drew took (اخذ) from the Children of Adam - from their loins backs (ظهورهم)- their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful":

2-  And according to the Holy Quran, Allah Almighty CREATED and FASHIONED Adam, and blew from His SPIRIT into Adam's NEW BODY and made Adam alive, peace be upon him.  And then Allah Almighty ordered all of the Beings of the Universe to bow down to Adam.  Iblis, who later became satan, refused.  You can read about all of this at:

www.answering-christianity.com/holy_spirit.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/adam.htm

So, there you have it my dear brother.  Evolution is rejected in the Holy Quran.  Now, the ISLAMIC EVOLUTION is that we used to be much bigger than what we are today.  We used to be 60 arms tall, or 90 feet tall, and kept shrinking:

www.answering-christianity.com/adam.htm

I hope this helps, Insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[mclinkin94]

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Mclinkin94,

This is a topic that I wanted to debate you on, and I guess we could start it now .  I of course come with complete humbleness and respect to you and to everyone, especially that I am the owner of this blog.  So please, feel free to speak your mind freely.  I only stopped a few threads about this subject in the past, because I didn't want it to be distracting to the young students that we have here in both college and high school.  I don't mind debates at all as long as they don't become compulsive and out of control and devouring to one's time and personal life.

Thank you for allowing me to speak my mind freely. And of course there will be no disrespect in my posts, all my posts will do is present Quranic evidence and possible show evidence that a certain interpretation is correct than the next. If anything seems disrespectful, I would like to apologize beforehand.  I don't take anything you say in this debate personally and please don't take anything I say personally!

For this debate, I would like to completely leave the hadith scene. I will not present hadiths as I do not take them as valid sources (this could be another debate, but for now, we are looking at the Quranic disclosure on evolution. you cannot interpret the Quran using a weak-potentialy corrupted source like hadiths or the bible. The Quran is to be interpreted by the Quran itself).

Having said that, I would like to directly engage you by inviting you to visit: www.answering-christianity.com/cloning.htm.  Here are some of the reasons, from many, why evolution is completely false according to Islam.  First, when I say "evolution", I mean us becoming humans from animals.  This is completely rejected in the Holy Quran for the following reasons:

This is an interesting article and that verse about altering Allah's creation is absolutely relevant in modern times. We are manipulating Allah's creation as we speak. With biotechnology coming over, we are injecting genes into new organisms.

I obviously don't agree that it is rejected in the Holy Quran that humans came from animals and that we were made in diverse successive stages and those stages involved primitive humans whom which we became successors of the Earth with.

The Popular Belief of Multiplying is Wrong:

1-  Did you know that according to the Holy Quran Itself, humans weren't created from just sexual intercourse from Adam and Eve, and certainly not from their immediate children having sex with each others?  In other words, the popular belief that Adam and Eve had offsprings through their marriage and sex, and their offsprings (siblings) had sex with each others and had other humans, and those other humans had sex and multiplied into other humans, and those other humans had sex and multiplied and so on.....  This popular belief is wrong! 

It is possible that this popular belief is wrong. I have nothing against the belief as whether these beings mated or not has no relevance to evolution. If Adam and eve did not mate, then they are just 2 people whom which we all descended from.

many Muslims would go against your view, because of Quran 4:1

 [Quran 4:1] O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one nafs and created from it its pair and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah , through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer.

Many Muslims assert that this means that Allah created us from Adam and then created eve from adam and then they made many men and women from them. If this is the case, then your view is wrong. But, I don't believe this is the case. Allah did not mention the names of Adam and Hawwa on purpose. This verse is telling us that ALL humans came from a singular "nafs". But what is a "nafs"? A "nafs" is not necessarily a human being.

The question arises: What is a 'nafs'? 'Nafs' is a living being as the following verse informs us:

(Quran 21:35) Every living being (nafsin) shall have a taste of death


Thus we must conclude that we were created from a singular living being in which its pair was created from it. This singular cell and its pair then made many human men and women. 21:35 "Every living being (nafsin) shall have a taste of death." Whatever dies have Nafs. So it means any living being including single cell being. Therefore, in verse 4:1 "Who has developed you from one Nafs (living being), and from it its mate and sent forth from both many male and female.", one Nafs was not Adam, it talks about the "same origin" of all nafses (beings), the rudimentary simple single cell and the relation between the Nafses.

Since the origin of all living being is same, they certainly were not separately created. There is NO verse that tells that the living being were developed separately. In fact Quran 2:30 tells us that we became successors on Earth. The Question arises, successors to who?

If you have noticed that the Quran started by saying that Allah created us a from a living being and from THAT singular living being, MEN and WOMEN (humans) formed.

This is completely in line with how the first cell formed from clay and that cell is the ancestor of all beings on earth.

2-  According to the Holy Quran, Allah Almighty performed what we call today CLONING from Adam and Eve's immediate children, peace be upon all of the righteous ones from among all of that family.  I've written about this long before you joined this blog in the past at:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,842.msg2547.html#msg2547

The Noble Verse that I analyzed in great details is:

‏7:172 واذ اخذ ربك من بني ادم من ظهورهم ذريتهم واشهدهم على انفسهم الست بربكم قالوا بلى شهدنا ان تقولوا يوم القيامة انا كنا عن هذا غافلين 

[007:172]  When thy Lord drew took (اخذ) from the Children of Adam - from their loins backs (ظهورهم)- their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful":

I have been looking into this recently. I would say that it is possible that this is what the Quranic verse is referring to. The other alternate valid translation is that "Drew from their loins", would be the semen that was taken from their loins. But it is possible that Allah intervened for some reason. The fact is that it still says that Adam and Hawwa may have been husband and wife and that they are 2 people whom which we all descended from. It is also possible that Adam and Hawwa may not be a husband and wife and they were just 2 people whom we all descended from. My point is, it doesn't matter exactly how it occured--it just matters where they came from. And this verse informs us that Adam and Eve (the pair of humans in which we have all descended from, came from sexual reproduction).

(Quran 35:11) And Allah did create you from dust; then from a reproductive fluid; then He made you in pairs

^It says "THEN" allah made humans in pairs. So if Adam and eve were a pair (male and female), then they were made AFTER allah created sexual reproduction (reproductive fluid). This fact by it self informs us that the hadith explanation that Adam was not formed from sexual reproduction or in an embryo is wrong. Adam was created from sexual reproduction and he was formed in an embryo and he may have had a parent.

In fact, Jesus was born in an embryo and he had a parent. The Quran informs us that Adam was created in the same way (it is possible, he may not have had a father):

(Quran 3:59) Surely the likeness of Jesus is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.

Both were created from dust: Yes
Both were created from the embryo: Yes
Both had a parent: Yes
Both had Allah intervening in their wombs: Yes

2-  And according to the Holy Quran, Allah Almighty CREATED and FASHIONED Adam, and blew from His SPIRIT into Adam's NEW BODY and made Adam alive, peace be upon him.  And then Allah Almighty ordered all of the Beings of the Universe to bow down to Adam.  Iblis, who later became satan, refused.  You can read about all of this at:

www.answering-christianity.com/holy_spirit.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/adam.htm

I do not deny that Allah created and fashioned Adam and blew from his spirit onto Adam. These events do not undermine the Quranic support for evolution. Adam was chosen to be the one whom which the spirit was blown into. The problem is you are assuming that the spirit gives life. The spirit is something that Allah did not explain what it is. It does not have to be life giving. The spirit could be the soul that Allah has inserted into Adam and his progeny so that Allah could test us. Adam and his descendants marked the creation of humans. This is where Allah inputs your soul.

 Adam was just chosen to be the descendant of the Earth. And at that moment that is where Allah ordered the beings to bow to Adam. That is the moment where Allah asked Adam the names.

Allah did create Adam in stages from Clay.
Allah did proportion his creation until it reached the human level. (Allah made his creation better)
Allah did blow into Adam his spirit.

(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has perfected everything he created, and He began the creation of the human (being) out of clay--> He made everything he created better. Evolution seems to explain the mechanism of perfecting God's creation. (Clay is a product of wet earth-Exactly what you are made of: Water and Earth.

What's even more fascinating about this verses is that Allah say he made all of his creation better from the original and he began the creation of a human. This verse is hinting at a connection. A connection that human beings were made through a process of evolving better than the original creation.

(Quran 32:8) Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

^This verse comes right after the previous one. So AFTER human beings BEGAN forming,, our posterity comes from an extract of semen. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.

(Quran 32:9) Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

^AFTER Allah made sexual reproduction, he proportioned us and given us vision/hearing/consciousness.

Allah BEGINS the process of creation, lets sexual reproduction happen, and then we get proportioned and achieve higher consciousness. Aren't these verses clear in their support of gradual creation of humans?

The preceding verse seems to be a highlight of the major evolutionary steps and it uses a sequential conjunction to illustrate its purpose. Creation began from a basic earth like substance (clay), then after the initiation of creation, sexual reproduction develops and then after that higher intelligence forms. This verse specifically says that our posterity was made from an extract of a liquid disdained, this implies that after the initiation of creation of man from the Earth, the ability to sexually reproduce formed.  After sexual reproduction formed, higher intelligence develops. Evolutionary, we can say that life formed from the Earth (or what became to be the earth). Their mode of reproduction was asexual. Then sexual reproduction occurred which allowed for more variation and more complexity in organisms. Through sexual reproduction, more variation occurred which allowed extremely complex multicellular organisms capable of thought, like humans to develop. This Quranic verse appears to highlight such a phenomenon by stating that creation started out of the Earth, then sexual reproduction developed, then humans formed.


This is extremely fundamental as it describes the creation of humans on earth EXACTLY AS IT HAPPENED!

(QURAN 7:11)And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], THEN given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"


We were created in one form (early hominid), THEN given another form (human form), THEN Allah made the angels prostrate to Adam. Look at the sequence of events and the evolutionary implication.  We were created in a form, then given human form, Then Adam was created, then Allah made the angels prostrate to him. That means that the creation of Adam involved many diverse stages.


Another Quranic verse informs us that Allah creates by increasing and adding on to his creation. Making his creation better!

(Quran 35:1) All praise is due to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, who made the angels messengers having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

In this verse, Allah informs us that he increases the complexity of creation. He adds onto his creation things--He improves upon/perfects his creation. This verse is informing us that Allah increases complexity in creation and that he works through improving creation. Also notice what chapter this verse happens to be coincidentally in. The chapter name is "The originator". Just by mere juxtaposition, the Quran informs us that Allah originates creation and he adds on to creation. Now look at this verse in reference to 32:7. Now do you see why I appeal to translation #2? Allah prefects his creation, he improves it, he adds on to it, he makes it good. Allah perfects his creation.

(Quran 82:7) O mankind, what has deceived you concerning your Lord, the Generous, Who created you, then proportioned you, and then balanced you?


This verse may refer to three main stages of the creation of human beings. The first was creation of a living cell (The Arabic verb khlaqa, created). The second was the change from unicellular prokaryote organism to the multi-cellular eukaryote animal organism (The Arabic verb sawwa, fashioned you). The third was the human departure from the animal stage (The Arabic verb 'adala, made you walk in an upright way, fixed you, made you better). Allah has improved his creation. Allah has added on to his creation, just like Allah mentioned when he said he added wings to angels. Allah originates creation, then Evolves it (increases it, improves it, perfects it).

[mclinkin94]

Asalamu Alaikum brother Osama. Thanks for your patience. I had to firstly finish up a research paper I'm writing and then I spent time reviewing this cloning theory. I have to admit that it may be possible. If that is the way it happened, though, it doesn't have any effect on the Quranic evolution support.

Thank you for your patience. I have updated the previous post. It is now complete 

[Md.Mobashir Mallick]

@mclinkin , although it ain't mentioned in the Quran about Hadiths specifically , but again in the Quran it is written to follow Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) specifically , so how to follow him now exactly obviously through the SAHIH HADITHS , now obviously one will be fooling himself if he accepts the Quran & rejects the prophethood of Prophet Muhammd p.b.u.h , how can such a gr8 person through whom Allah revealed the Quran can be wrong when Allah perfected him , so brother I would like you to think about it & moreover if didn't had the Hadiths then we wud have known we have to perform salah , but how? We wud hav known to perform zakaat byt how? We wud have known to perform hajj but how?? So brother you shud start believing in hadiths at least the authentic ones

[Md.Mobashir Mallick]

Now brother glad to hear you are a microbiologist , I too am a student of medical in India & I've been trying to study the darwin theoru & neo darwinism but after thinking about it logically I've come to a point that its partially right , I.e only adaptation & survival of the fittest can fit but not the theory of evolution , like you said evolution is a long process & man has also been living in this earth since a very long time , I mean since millions of yyears if any kind of evolution wud have been shown then obviously we wud have got atleat some historical facts to support it & moreover if man evolved from the common ancestors of apes then most probably all the apes shud have been evolved into a man since we all know that man survives better than apes & can adapt better but this ain't the case , & at last I wud again like to say that I am not sure about evolution so I can't say anything & Allah & his messenger knows the best

[mclinkin94]

@mclinkin , although it ain't mentioned in the Quran about Hadiths specifically , but again in the Quran it is written to follow Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) specifically , so how to follow him now exactly obviously through the SAHIH HADITHS , now obviously one will be fooling himself if he accepts the Quran & rejects the prophethood of Prophet Muhammd p.b.u.h , how can such a gr8 person through whom Allah revealed the Quran can be wrong when Allah perfected him , so brother I would like you to think about it & moreover if didn't had the Hadiths then we wud have known we have to perform salah , but how? We wud hav known to perform zakaat byt how? We wud have known to perform hajj but how?? So brother you shud start believing in hadiths at least the authentic ones

Hello brother Mallick! I cannot follow hadiths as they haven't been authorized by the Quran nor the prophet Muhammad. In fact, we know that the prophet Muhammad did not state anything pertaining to religion that is relevant to us besides the Quran and we know it through this verse:

verses 69:43-47
"[It is] (Quran) a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
Had he uttered any other teachings (besides this revelation-Quran),
We would have seized him by the right hand;
Then We would have cut from him the aorta.
And there is no one of you who could prevent [Us] from him."

^it shows that Muhammad could not have taught anything else than the Quran, otherwise God would have killed him! It (Quran) is a revelation from the lord of the worlds. If Muhammad has uttered any other word, he would have been killed and the Quran makes it clear that if the prophet has taught any other teaching besides the Quran, the teaching is invalid and the prophet would be killed. 


To follow the messenger, means to follow the message (quran). IF you follow the Quran, you follow the message which means you follow the messenger which means you follow Allah.

There is one thing you need to know about hadiths.

The number of hadiths collected and attributed to the prophet Muhammed is in the hundreds of thousands, as much as 700,000. The majority of these hadith are pure lies and fabrications and were rejected by the early Muslim scholars who thought they can figure out which hadith is authentic and which is not. Let us look at some of the famous hadiths collectors and what they collected.

(1) Malik Ibn Anas collected about 500 hadiths in his famous book, "Al-Muwattaa"

(2) Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, collected about 40,000 hadiths, in his famous "Musnad".He chose these 40,000 hadiths from among 700,000 hadiths. In other words he thought 660,000 hadith were un-proven, lies and/or fabrications and the others may be authentic. That is 94% lies and fabrications

(3) Bukhari collected about 600,000 hadiths and accepted 7275 hadiths and considered 592,725 hadiths to be un-proven hadiths, lies and/or fabrications, that is almost 99% of what he collected

(4) Moslem collected 300,000 hadiths and only accepted 4000 of them, and refused about 296,000, that is almost 99% of these collected hadiths .

If we have had THAT much corruption in our hadiths, what makes you think the prophet said any of the 'sahih' hadiths? This whole system is flawed. Those people (bukhari and others) accepted the ones that they perceived good and the ones that they agreed with and thought the Quran supports. As if they are infallible.

This gives us an idea of how much corruption entered or tried to enter Islam from the back door. Now we should understand why God promised to preserve, protect and safeguard His book which is described as the only authentic hadith, the only acceptable hadith and the best hadith.

[MuslimBoy]

As'salamu Alaikum everyone, I was thinking to comment on your "Islamic Evolution" from a long ago but Your "your-only" interpretation resist me. Firstly, the Debate should be on wether Islam supports Abiogenesis or not but the debate was Wether Islam supports Evolution or not. Secondly, Brother Mclinkin, Abiogenesis and Evolution are interdependent : If Abiogenesis is True than Evolution is also true but If Evolution is true than it does NOT NECESSARILY means that Abiogenesis is true, For Abiogenesis, There are (allegedly) some plenty of Evidences that (allegedly) prove it True and For Evolution, there is NOT a SINGLE strong evidence of MacroEvolution (the theory that states Any species can turn into a whole new one just because of Natural Selection) besides Abiogenesis but Abiogenesis is itself is not so much strong that it can prove MacroEvolution right but Islam mainly resist Abiogenesis and for explaining Abiogenesis, we have evolution and Proving evolution, we have Abiogenesis, Did not it is a fallacy (if we reject/disprove the so-called evidences of Abiogenesis)? . For your all interpretation of Quran, It is a chance of 50/50, each verse can be interpreted in either way. Moreover, There are some verses, where you are only in some 40 or even 30 and others interpretation is a lot more convincing. And Last, I think (Personal Opinion) that Muslims can believe in Evolution, at least in some terms such as MicroEvolution but Abiogenesis is a thing that is discredited and put into Garbage by Islam. I had asked a question " Did Muslims can Believe in theory of Evolution?(Opinions Needed) " but everyone thinks that I was asking about Abiogenesis and even I do not told them that as I am a careless person.