I read you have called Shias Pagan?

[alimosawi]

      .

[Black Muslim]

I'm not sure about the differences between shia , but let us look at the fundamental basics of Islam , the five pillars .

1 - To believe that there is no god except Allah and that Muhammad is his prophet
2 - To do prayer
3 - To do "Zaka"
4 - To fast Ramadan
5 - To do pilgrimage once during a person's life to whoever can .

The ones I know don't believe that Allah is the only god there is . They claim Ali may Allah be pleased of him is a god and has created everything , others say that Jibreel peace upon him - innocent he is from what they say - didn't do his duty and delivered the message to prophet Muhammad peace upon him instead of Ali .

This is the first and most basic pillar of Islam . When someone breaks it , we won't hesitate to say he's not a Muslim . That's aside from worship of the dead and accusing the companions of "kufr" and other things . Those who do so among shia are not in anyway Muslims as they don't believe in one God as we do .

[alimosawi]

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[alimosawi]

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[Black Muslim]

Secondly, I shattered in Piece when u said that "I'm not sure about the differences between shia" and in the last line u have posted something like "They claim Ali may Allah be pleased of him is a god and has created everything , others say that Jibreel peace upon him - innocent he is from what they say - didn't do his duty and delivered the message to prophet Muhammad peace upon him instead of Ali". I ask you If u say that u r not sure about the difference Why u have posted something which is totally wrong about the Shia People. WE HAVE NEVER CONSIDERED ALI (pbuh) A god!!!!!!!

I mentioned the ones I know and hear speaking in this exact way . If you're not of then then it isn't directed at you . That is why I always say "The type of shia I know" because I won't judge the ones I don't .
And let me ask you here : What is the difference you have that you call yourself shia ? From a number of narrations to the prophet peace upon him we find out that the group following his true teachings is called "Ahl Assuna wa Al-Jama'a" meaning the ones who follow his sunna and remain by his group . So what's the difference ?

Why you people criticize Shia People with something which is thoroughly wrong. WALLahi, my Heart Breaks into Parts Wallahi I won't forgive anyone who criticize Shia People, Wallahi I seek justice from Almighty Allah for those Muslims who are not aware of what Other People are spreading against Shia.

Ali , I can easily give you links to sites and videos of some of those who do what we're saying they do . I didn't just claim so out of nothing or just because I heard it from someone . I saw and heard with my own two ears .

Brother who told you that Shia People are accusing the companions of "kufr".
Allhamdulliah We do respect the 4 companions of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) (pbuh)

It isn't just the for successors but the whole nation of the companions . Anyway , if you do , then you're not one of those I mentioned .

Though, without any doubt we Love Hazara Ali (RA) the most. This is Our love for him and I pretty sure unconditional love is not "kfr" in Islam.

Although there are narrations saying that the best of the companions was Abu Bakr may Allah be pleased of him , that's something for another time , but yes , favoring Ali may Allah be pleased of him isn't "Kufr" .

and what is this worship of dead??? where have u read allllllllllll theseeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! every Shia recites "Surat Al-'Ikhlāş" thousand times a day I'm pretty sure you understand the meaning of "Surat Al-'Ikhlāş" how can U say Shia worship dead etc whilst every single child, young, men, women, old recites "Surat Al-'Ikhlāş". I have thousands of words to say and ask but first ALL I want the References of what you have posted here about Shia people.

Can you read Arabic ? Because I'm not so good with finding references in English . This is a video of some forbidden acts in decorating graves
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0qbkESwlR4
That isn't itself worship of the dead , but still :
http://www.dd-sunnah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=149078
You may want to zoom out with CTRL and (-) because the font is a little big .

[alimosawi]

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[alimosawi]

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[Black Muslim]

3) After Allah's Apostle (pbuh) we do follow all his grand sons (11)  martyrs and moan in the month of "Muharram" they are those who sacrificed their lives for the sake of Islam, spreading and teaching Islam and also to save their Grand Father's Religion ( Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh). )

I'll skip talking about this as we don't see it as a minor difference .

Shia's never does that these are all allegation that people have gathered together. Allhamdulliah We respect and accept all the companions of Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

You're getting me wrong . I'm saying that the love and respect of the companions should be to all of them and not the four successors may Allah be pleased of them . You confirmed it just now .

Brother I can read Arabic but for the meaning I have to search it as I dont know all the meanings. Anyway, IF I say "He is Allah, He is One; The Self-Sufficient, The Eternal God; He begets not, nor was He begotten; There is no God but he (Allah) [The Holy Qur'an, Surah 112:1-4]. which every Shia and Sunni Muslims say every day many times.
If I worship grave then there is not point of recite that sacred SURAH in my pray everyday. Now let me tell that the Pictures put on those webpage are the graves of those martyrs WHO SACRIFICED their LIVES for ALLAH and His Apostle (SAW) to save Islam. They are the GRAND son of PROPHET Muhammad (SAW) which Includes ( the 4rth Caliph and Son-in-Law Imam Ali (pbuh)) Imam Hassan And Hussain(grand son of P. MUhammad(SAW) (may Allah be pleased with them). Why people go their graves?? the only reason is because they were the most knowledgeable amongst the momineen of that time and had sacrificed their lives to prevent Islam from bad People of that time and also got Martyred. Surely they are one the Most reputed amongst Muslim for Allah So people go there and AsK ALLAH TO LISTEN TO THEIR needs FOR THE SAKE OF THESE MARTYR person. Well You should search for it because I can't go deep into it. It will be insanely long.

I do know about why they do it and all . I'm saying this isn't a minor difference between us . But it's off topic so I'll not address it anymore .

At the last, My brother let me tell you there are 3 separate groups even In Sunni.

What groups ? And what 3 ? We know that they are four and their differences are in minor non doctrine related matters such as covering the face for women . I wouldn't call those groups . And if you look into it you'll find that the differences narrow even more as some scholars where mistaken because they never heard of a certain narration for example . And if they did , they would admit it .

We (Shia and Sunii ) are the Two Shoulders of Islam please get together to save our religion from Enemies (Isreal and America) . Don't fight amongst each other Please. Wake up and try to talk to Shia Scholars and ask them if they wrong anywhere tell them not to do it because Sunnis are our elder Brothers these what I was told When I was a KID in school.

It depends . When it comes to these I'm talking about and who for some reason fill the internet and television , they contradict the basic pillars or Islam . Those are people we should warn others from and face with evidence and proof . And when it comes differences between Muslims themselves , if they are minor , it wouldn't harm us , but if a group is wrong , then we shouldn't just say "Don't fight each other" , we should also bring forth proof and evidence .

If anyone reads these post and feel the same about Shia please I encourage you to provide references from SHIA books and Shia Islamic scholars. Don't put references from other post and blogs or videos. Put references where any Shia Scholars himself has said that we do these. or any Shia momineen has mentioned somewhere in their books. I really encourage to read and understands them and after that if u come across anything then put them here and ask because putting references from youtube videos and other blogs and post doesn't make it right what u have heard.

You told me you don't fully know Arabic , is that right ? Then , in the link I provided , there are sources from shia books themselves .

1 - Tafsir Al-Ayashi
2 - Al-Wahid Al-Khurasani
3 - Mafateeh Al-Jinan
4 - Bihar Al-Anwar

And many other .

[alimosawi]

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[Black Muslim]

First of All, its clearly visible that your brain is already set and you don't want to change it. This is extremely sad and there is no point of discussion in that case.
The reference you put there 90% of them are completely lie and false.

"Sigh" You seem to have lost it . You just deny these and call them false and fake . Fine , I'll give you direct links to the pages of the books themselves .

1 - Al-Kafi written by Al-Kileeny , page 245 . It says all the companions are apostates except fro three .
http://www.al-shia.org/html/ara/books/lib-hadis/al-kafi-8/07.htm

2 - Haq Al-Yaqeen by Al-Majlisy . From page 231 to 247 , that's a whole chapter accusing the companions of blasphemy and cursing them . And in page 519 (512 In the version I'll put) it says that one is infidel unless he accuses the following ones with apostasy . Abu Bakr , Umar , Uthman , and Mu'aoya , in addition to Aisha , Hafsa , Hind , and Um Al-Hakam may Allah be pleased of them . I couldn't find an online version but there is one for download
http://narjes-library.blogspot.com/2011/07/blog-post_6753.html

3 - Bihar Al-Anwar by Al-Majlisy . volume 69 page 137 to 138 . It says straight out that Abu Bakr and Umar are disbelievers . Innocent they are ! I couldn't find the thing online as well but this is volume 69 for download . It isn't in the same order because the book is divided so you should go to page 68 and 69 .
http://www.alseraj.net/a-k/hadith/behar/69.pdf

4 - Basa'ir Addarajat by Assafry . Page 245 . In the following link , it isn't ordered correctly so it's 290 . Use the search function . It says that Abu Bakr and Umar are cursed ! Innocent they are ! Allah has promised the two of them paradise .
http://www.yasoob.com/books/htm1/m012/09/no0974.html

These are fragments . What do you have to say now ?

finally, as you said there are 4 groups in Sunnis, let say first try to finish the differences between yourselves then criticize others. You just can't finish the topic by saying that there are minor difference.

There's a huge difference between if a little spilled blood makes it mandatory to do Wudo again or not , and between accusing the ones who made Quran reach us with apostasy . The differences are not in doctrine . They are in "Fiqh" . And if you know what that means , you wouldn't have just said this . We all agree on the pillars of Islam and pillars of believe and many other things . Trying to make such differences look that big is meaningless .

No has the right to judge others but Allah. Those whoever believe in Allah and Apostle's and in the day of judgement, Allah says they will be justified in the day of judgement.  having said that you have no right to criticize people whatsoever. 

Yes I have . I won't stand still when someone says the companions are apostates . I won't stand still when someone tries to alter what's in Islam in anyway . And this is the 110th sign of Surah of Al-Imran saying so ((You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah . If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient.)) .

To be honest, now I don't feel to give justification to You as your brain is set and You are not willing to listen and understand me. So please stop criticizing us. If I'm wrong Allah will surely punish me here and in the day of judgement.

And who said I need to justify anything as if I made a crime ? You got your references up there . So go ask Allah to curse them as you said you would .

[alimosawi]

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[Black Muslim]

hey Brother let me tell you ALL shia do follow the five pillars of Islam, and Many other things don't bring that again and again. I told you we do follow so accept it and don't say sunni agrees on pillars I surely know All shia do.

You know , we have an old saying "If you have sand on your head , feel it" . It means that if it doesn't address you , don't talk about it . You follow the pillars ? Good . Then you're not one of those I'm addressing .

are You OK? putting all in ARABIC? let me tell the majority of Shia are in Iran. and they don't write arabic and so.

You told me you can understand a bit . And I told you I'm not good with references in English .

I couldn't understand what was written in all those references but let me clear they all are modified books if there is any thing wrong. as you have asked me, I told you they are false Shai don't do that.

Refusing all those books is meaningless through saying "They must be modified" . I took them straight from Shia websites and they are in PDF . That means they are pictures of the real life books . Those are written scholars of Shiism . If you have a problem with anyone , you should have it with them and deem them wrong instead of yelling at me .

many of the allegation you asked I already denied that they all are false. So don't bring that again and again. I'm not scared of any1 so I never lie (Allhamdullillah) to you that we don't do that and these. IF we shia DO anything and U ask about it, I surely will tell about it as I know I'm not wrong as far I'm Following Quran and Sunnah. So If I'm denying the allegation DON't PASS it AGAIN PLEASE.

Again , if you have sand on your head , touch it .

WHO said companions are apostates?? I told you that they only criticize UMAR (RA) and Aisha but they never say apostate to any one.

And who do they think themselves to criticize people whom Allah promised paradise ?! You were just saying I don't have the right to criticize people ! But when it comes to the companions it's OK ?! Or am I missing something here ? Once more , touch the sand .

So in the end , it proves that there are people and scholars among Shia who do accuse the companions of blasphemy , view Ali may Allah be pleased of him as a God , and worship the dead . If you're mad at someone , be mad at them .

[alimosawi]

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[Black Muslim]

I said one in Million  NOT ALL once again NOT ALL SHIA dont say SHIA those who do that THEY are KUFR so don't say SHIA don't compare us with them..

"Facepalm"
OK now , first of all , that would be "Kuffar" and not "Kufr" . Kufr is the act of blasphemy . Kuffar are the ones who commit blasphemy . And what does this have to do with anything ?! Even you admit that this act is wrong . WHERE did I say all followers of shiism do so ?! Who's psychotic now !?

You are surely amongst those who have a mind set and put references I don't know where the hell from. No Use of them because I say they ARE FAKE and False. Those who ever distribute them are the same with those who create those fake pages.

"Facepalm"
Now seriously , WHAT evidence do you have that these are fake ? I give you direct links to shia sites and direct links to exact PDFs of real life books . Do you think just saying "They are fake" makes them fake ?! You mad ? Be mad at the shia people who made those book and not me .

I have no more discussion with you. I want to discuss with a literate person not with someone who brings one thing again and again which I denied several times.

And that's exactly what's wrong with you ! You think that just by denying something you prove it isn't right .

Suicide bombing is Haram, and those whoever does it Are Kufr and will go Directly to hell. Only a group of Sunni people do Suicide bombing and blood shed every where, because of them people everywhere in the world call us Terrorists. OMG they r saving Isalm aren't they??? U do support them aren't you??

Are you trying to make me say inappropriate things to you ? Because the things I hate most are farces ! Aside from your rant and "Oh ! You're such a horrible person who does horrible things !" drama , what actual value do you have in your argument ?

go man first  Make your people saint then come to us.... All your references are fake and False no use of them putting here because I already deny them and Shia Don't do such things don't stress on that I As a SHIA deny all allegations... People those who has a mind set create them and distribute them...

Fake my foot ! Everyone can see them . And not to mention they are written by old or new scholars of Shiism
http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF_%D8%A8%D9%86_%D9%8A%D8%B9%D9%82%D9%88%D8%A8_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%86%D9%8A
http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%AF_%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%82%D8%B1_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%AC%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%8A
So deny as much as you like and that wouldn't matter .

I want a true Muslim to come forward and ask politely what they ask and understand and trust me whatever I accept or deny. not like this Black Muslim. Even his name shows racism

Hilarious how you understand things in reverse ! I am Black and a Muslim , so if you hate blacks and hates Muslims , then you can hate me all you like and I don't care . THAT'S what I mean by the name .

Now , after all this rant and nonsense and emotional attack on me backed up with ABSOLUTELY NO ARGUMENT , let's make some things clear :

1 - You fail horribly to understand English and fail more in understanding Arabic apparently . For the 85945840 time , there are indeed people of Shia who commit those acts of blasphemy . And while you keep repeating that not ALL Shia are like that , you should blame those instead of saying something I didn't say . Do I need to make it more simple ? Fine then . I DIDN'T SAY ALL SHIA ARE LIKE THAT . You're deluding yourself .

2 - Those books are INDEED written by scholars of Shiism . If not , then you must be a kind of Shia we don't know about . Saying they are fake with no evidence is meaningless . Saying that we forge them with no proof is meaningless . Saying they don't exist because "Shia don't do this" is meaningless .

3 - You act solely on your emotions and don't have any arguments with actual value .

Enough said .

[Black Muslim]

Don't be my Dictionary, I know the difference I Would have written that in a rush.

A nice way to not answer how you put words in my mouth .

Lolz You Psychopath?? Have you even read that??? if you are putting that as reference then You yourself is against you, there was nothing to prove your point.

And now it's a psychopath ? Anyway , here they are again in English if you can't understand Arabic :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Ya%27qub_al-Kulayni
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Baqir_Majlisi
And note that it says they are scholars of Shiism . Case closed . So you should be lashing at them for giving a negative view of shia not me .

Who Do you think You are?? Am I on your GUN point So lie or DEny?? YOU're brain Washed Bro... I Wallahi Not scared of any human beings But ALLah the Almighty..  I would never lie or deny anything which is true about us, but if its false no matter how hard You try I will DENy and DENYY.

I'm beginning to think that you either don't understand plain English or you don't understand basic logic . When I give you evidence of something , either you say that what they do is not of your Shiism and that they are wrong , or admit it . You apparently do neither . Do I have to make it simple again ? Fine . You must either answer my point and show me if I'm wrong about it , deem yourself innocent of them the same way we all deem ourselves innocent of violence against the innocent - Yeah , a lot of "innocent mentioning , whatever - , or admit that it's true . So what will you do ?

Let's Face it how many WEbpages You want me to show you that says MUslim are Terrorist Just because of you People American People Burn QUran, just because of you People Israelis made a crap film of Our Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

You can take this statement and throw it in the nearest trash dumb . Jews and Christians hate us ever since the beginning of Islam . Wither 0.04 of Muslims act violently or not isn't going to change how they look at us . They are used to lie in all different ways to divert people from truth . Put a face if you want , I don't care . And after hearing this part of your rant , WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING ?!

THE irani People were the first who yell against the people who made that film against our prophet.. where were SAUDI arabia that time WHo do you think you are to JUDGE me and MY PEOPLE???

I don't care in the slightest about Iran , Saudia Arabia , or any other forsaken country which makes the so called "nationality" more important than brotherhood in Islam . Trying to make an emotional attack through "You're from Saudia Arabia so you suck , I'm Iranian so I rule" is pathetic .

I clearly say that all Pages he put there are in Arabic, and the majority of SHIA people understand PERSIAN or FARSI in my Country where SHIA mostly live if I'm not wrong which doesnt matter though... People like You Allow SUICIDE Bombing, CAlling Kaffir other people, Putting allegations on others, try to demolish people where Human beings lives have no value for you. where as OUR prophet (pbuh) brought the message of peace and harmony.

Again , take this statement and throw it in the nearest trash dumb along with the rest of your rant . Claiming we allow suicide is a low shot showing your true value . And when someone has NOTHING at all except emotional attacks , you know he's got NOTHING .
Arabic or not , what's the point ? You used a translation of Quran so does that make it fake ?

Written in ARABIC, revealed in ARABIC, Distributed in ARABIC and read ARABIC people....  OMG!!!! and you call them references?? I ask you how many SHIA people you met and asked them??

Arabic or not means nothing ! So what ? You're telling me all Shia are Persian ? If you say so then you're absolutely out of your mind . Wither those books were written in Persian or Arabic doesn't matter . If Persian , the pages I brought are translations . No meaning in your "Arabic sucks" nonsense .

And after all this heap of trash you think we'll be cool if you call me "Brother" ?! Keep in mind that this thread started fine as a conversation but you're the one who bloody acted like a retarded moron who understands NOTHING of what I say ! YOU'RE the one who started calling me psychotic and brain washed because you're simply afraid to respond with a meaningful argument ! YOU'RE the one who put words in my mouth and ranted like a 5 years old ! So deal with the consequences of your bloody actions , go learn logic and a bit of English , and shut up and spare us the headache !!