An advice to mclinkin94

[Black Muslim]

It's rather ironic that you tell me to mind my own business. Are you so insecure about your beliefs that you have to always try and pick on my posts and constantly produce Ad Hominem attacks instead of addressing the original point?

Because you're supposed to mind it . You have people of a religion conflicting , what does it have to do with you ? The real irony is the usual drama Atheists play of how they are oppressed and no one leaves them alone . I'm not the one insecure . There is no question with no answer in Islam . And I'm the one picking on your posts ? If you're not here to talk or debate about Atheism and Islam then why stick around ? And finally , you're not one to talk about ad hominem or whatever words you keep repeating . You're the one who always ignores the core of the response to his believe . So yes , you're the one who's not secure . And as we say in Arabic "He accuses me of his disease and slips away" .

That sounds like an excuse to not debate me. Why not refute my arguments instead of insulting them? The Quran said explictly we were created in stages and the Quran explicitly highlighted what those stages were-evolutionary and embryological. There really is no way out of this if you want to remain intellectually honest.

Now you talk about forging excuses for not debating ? How many times did I tell you to come here  :
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php?
and you never commented at all ? I already made my argument wither it's where you reject Sunnah or where you claim Quran supports this dictatorial religion called "Evolution" . And my responses are right here :
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1269.0.html
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1295.0.html
And seeing how you repeat things over and over , I found no use in wasting 2 hours of my day refuting you point by point .
You accused the companions who Quran reached us through with hypocrisy . You accused scholars with no exception of corruption and forging sayings . And ironically , you wanted to force your belief in evolution on everyone and even accused me of worshiping other than Allah himself . And you still have the nerve talk about honesty ?! If you want to make a sect for yourself where you believe that we're cousins of monkeys and that there is no proof of a God - And therefore there is no God - and that Hadith is corrupted and the companions are disbelievers then don't call it Islam .

I believe your issue with evolution is not Quranic, but rather scientific. This is a religious forum, there are many science forums you can go to and debate with evolution. All you need to is study it and see the evidence for it.

My issue is both . Quran doesn't mention this nonsense and science keeps stepping on this myth day in and day out and evolutionists like you have nothing to do except forging evidence to support their belief . And if you're really so sure of it , then why not debate about it with someone who knows well how to crush it ? I personally do know evidence proving this thing wrong . The problem is that I'm not good at recalling sources and bringing them . That doesn't mean in anyway that I said evolution is wrong with no proof .

I have dropped by the places you keep pointing me at, do you expect me to go through all of the sites and write you a response one by one? Give me certain aspects of them that compel you and I will answer you.

What places ? It's one forum . I told you that if you're sure about evolution , then try to prove it where it is getting shot in the foot every single day . The place which Atheists and evolutionists despise so much .

I am compelled to believe in the fact of evolution. Science has proved it and the Quran has implied it.

Yeah , right . And melons are tornadoes hitting tropical areas .

There is a reason why the prominent scientists no longer consider evolution to be a theory. It has become very strong in its evidence and explanatory power. All the evidence we have proves evolution. Did you get that? All (not 'most') of the evidence we have proves evolution.

It seems we're dealing with the same type of a person who thinks that Baba Noel - AKA Santa Claus - is real . You have no idea of what happens around you , do you ? If it's really necessary , I'll just bring some tips of icebergs from a certain blog and see what you have to say . ALL evidence ? God wrecks the house of arrogance  You don't seem to know the shame evolutionists suffer with their fable getting exposed more and more .

But evidence doesn't convince the unwilling. , Allah does not love these kinds of people. He has given you intellect and higher intelligence. Many times in the Quran this is mentioned, intellect is important.

And now who's attacking the other instead of addressing the main argument ? That goes to both you and your Atheist buddy .

A perfect example is the flat earth society, please drop by and see the dishonesty and unwilling nature

I don't care what they think . You're now talking with me . What do we call this one ? Straw man ?

You are ordered to reflect upon the Quran:
(Quran 47:24) Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?
So reflect upon these verses:
(Quran 64:3) ...He designed you and perfected your design...
(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has made everything He created BETTER, and He began the creation of the human..

This is the answer for where you forge evidence .
 Allah perfected our design . And if you try to use this as an admission from me that you're right then don't you dare talk about dishonesty . I'll repeat what I already said . The reason you see evidence in this is your acrobatic explanation which comes from lack of knowledge about either mathematical logic or language . Perfecting something doesn't mean in ANYWAY that it wasn't perfect and then became perfect . You say I insult Allah by denying this myth ? Who's really insulting him ? Allah says in many places that he created creatures in perfect and fine forms and shapes . And now you claim he wasn't able to do so and needed "evolution" ?! I still can't understand how your mind functions when reading this . EVERY SINGLE PERSON I KNOW understands that Allah created us in perfect forms and no one came out with the meaning that it's evolution . Even a simple speaker of Arabic - OR ENGLISH ! - can understand that it means perfecting something while creating it and nothing is mentioned about evolution ! That's why I keep saying you see evidence in ANYTHING to support your belief .
As for the second verse , it is a CLEAR evidence of you forging things . Either that or you took some wrong translation and just decided to believe it . Here :
http://quran.com/32
NO translation at all says that after creating things , Allah made them better . And this one :
http://quran.com/95/4
Says that Allah has already created man in best shape .

So I'm still convinced this is a myth and a dictatorial religion .

P.S You're blocked on YouTube . I'm already dealing with others there . If you have something to say , say it here .

[The Canadian Atheist]

[Black Muslim]

And you're clearly on the blue side . The difference is that you believe 0+0=1

[The Canadian Atheist]

And you're clearly on the blue side . The difference is that you believe 0+0=1

Nope

Here's what's happening.

Man observes and through evidence discovers fossils that link man with other species.
Man observes and through evidence discovers common DNA that link man with other species.
Creationists read the Bible/Quran and for no reason just blindly accept what it says over the observable evidence.

[Black Muslim]

So , all you have is sarcasm and empty claims and then you talk about ad whatever ? I'll say it flat out . Man observed the universe and discovered that no sane person denies the creator . Evolutionists on the other hand , and in order to achieve their goals did whatever possible to force this myth on people . One good thing is that it's dying
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/178930_424615320925954_1911635107_n.jpg
Still , that wouldn't stop them from bringing new myths as long as they escape admitting a God .

[mclinkin94]

Now you talk about forging excuses for not debating ? How many times did I tell you to come here  :
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php?

And how many times have I told you I went there and that I simply don't have the time to refute every single point for you. If you have a good point as you percieve it from that website, let me know. and I will gladly respond.

and you never commented at all ? I already made my argument wither it's where you reject Sunnah or where you claim Quran supports this dictatorial religion called "Evolution" . And my responses are right here :
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1269.0.html
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1295.0.html

In the evolution post link, you have not disproved any of my points rather you point to hadiths and reject Quran. Its not my style. In the hadith post, you are partially right. Still, you haven't addressed my points. Unfortunately, Canadian Atheist was right when it comes to Ad hominem attacks. The reason why I say that is because you need to hear yourself. I could direct you to that same link and tell you I debunked your points.

And seeing how you repeat things over and over , I found no use in wasting 2 hours of my day refuting you point by point .

I don't think it would take 2 hours.

You accused the companions who Quran reached us through with hypocrisy

Did I? Or did Allah?

Quran 9:101 And among those around you of the bedouins are hypocrites, and [also] from the people of Madinah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. You, [O Muhammad], do not know them, [but] We know them. We will punish them twice [in this world]; then they will be returned to a great punishment.

I am simply not tolerant to those who deny the Quran. It is simply disturbing to see muslims denying the Quran. Its ridiculous.

You accused scholars with no exception of corruption and forging sayings .

Was that not a reasonable accusation based on deductive reasoning and the Quran?

And ironically , you wanted to force your belief in evolution on everyone and even accused me of worshiping other than Allah himself . 

I support whichever belief is reasonable and ration. Whichever belief is supported by logic/reason/evidence.

And you still have the nerve talk about honesty ?! If you want to make a sect for yourself where you believe that we're cousins of monkeys and that there is no proof of a God - And therefore there is no God 

It looks like you don't like the Idea that you share a comman ancestor with monkeys. It seems to bother you and you are biased against it. It seems to insult you. You must think humans are something special when the Quran demeans humans:

(Quran 76:1) Has there come on man a long period of time when he was a thing unremembered?

My issue is both . Quran doesn't mention this nonsense and science keeps stepping on this myth day in and day out and evolutionists like you have nothing to do except forging evidence to support their belief .

You have committed 3 factual errors. I have proven that the Quran without doubt supports evolution. And you have science undoubtedly proving evolution. It takes a real deal of dishonesty denying evolution. A LOT of dishonesty.

Just because you have seen a few cases of forged evidence, does not mean all the evidence is forged. You are simply too ignorant in biology to even claim a point in evolution. I suggest you study. The evidence is overwhelming.  Don't be like those who still believe the Earth is flat.

And if you're really so sure of it , then why not debate about it with someone who knows well how to crush it ?

I have and continue to. This isn't the only forum I am involved in.

I personally do know evidence proving this thing wrong . The problem is that I'm not good at recalling sources and bringing them . That doesn't mean in anyway that I said evolution is wrong with no proof .

O.K. This does nothing at all to help your case.

What places ? It's one forum . I told you that if you're sure about evolution , then try to prove it where it is getting shot in the foot every single day . The place which Atheists and evolutionists despise so much .

Apologies, I thought you refereed me to the dishonesty haruyn Yahya and Quran and darwinism. I'm working on refuting them both as we speak. I don't like dishonesty and whenever I see it--I immediately display it.

Like I said about that forum, all you have to do is present points you thought were compelling. None were to me.

I am compelled to believe in the fact of evolution. Science has proved it and the Quran has implied it.

Yeah , right . And melons are tornadoes hitting tropical areas .

Wow, you have really disproved my point.

It seems we're dealing with the same type of a person who thinks that Baba Noel - AKA Santa Claus - is real . You have no idea of what happens around you , do you ? If it's really necessary , I'll just bring some tips of icebergs from a certain blog and see what you have to say . ALL evidence ? God wrecks the house of arrogance  You don't seem to know the shame evolutionists suffer with their fable getting exposed more and more .

Remember what the Canadian Atheist said about Ad hominem. Reflect upon what you just said.  All evidence we have supports evolution. , Simply, a layperson such as yourself will need to really understand evolution before commenting at it. I do not deny your points as I have not heard them all. But I ask that you truly and without bias search for answers.

But evidence doesn't convince the unwilling. , Allah does not love these kinds of people. He has given you intellect and higher intelligence. Many times in the Quran this is mentioned, intellect is important.

And now who's attacking the other instead of addressing the main argument ? That goes to both you and your Atheist buddy .

I don't consider that attacking you. I consider that showing you what the Quran says about people who act like you. Evidence needs to be examined.

As far as "my atheist buddy", I support whichever belief makes sense and is reasonable regardless of where or who it comes from.

You are ordered to reflect upon the Quran:
(Quran 47:24) Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?
So reflect upon these verses:
(Quran 64:3) ...He designed you and perfected your design...
(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has made everything He created BETTER, and He began the creation of the human..

This is the answer for where you forge evidence .
 Allah perfected our design . And if you try to use this as an admission from me that you're right then don't you dare talk about dishonesty . I'll repeat what I already said . The reason you see evidence in this is your acrobatic explanation which comes from lack of knowledge about either mathematical logic or language . Perfecting something doesn't mean in ANYWAY that it wasn't perfect and then became perfect . You say I insult Allah by denying this myth ? Who's really insulting him ? Allah says in many places that he created creatures in perfect and fine forms and shapes . And now you claim he wasn't able to do so and needed "evolution" ?! I still can't understand how your mind functions when reading this . EVERY SINGLE PERSON I KNOW understands that Allah created us in perfect forms and no one came out with the meaning that it's evolution . Even a simple speaker of Arabic - OR ENGLISH ! - can understand that it means perfecting something while creating it and nothing is mentioned about evolution ! That's why I keep saying you see evidence in ANYTHING to support your belief .
As for the second verse , it is a CLEAR evidence of you forging things . Either that or you took some wrong translation and just decided to believe it . Here :
http://quran.com/32
NO translation at all says that after creating things , Allah made them better . And this one :
http://quran.com/95/4
Says that Allah has already created man in best shape .

So I'm still convinced this is a myth and a dictatorial religion .

P.S You're blocked on YouTube . I'm already dealing with others there . If you have something to say , say it here .

[/quote]

After all of this time, you have finally at least attempted to respond to one of my points. Now this is how a debate should go!  :D

Firstly, I haven't forged any evidence as I will show you. The first thing you did is say that "perfecting" something does not mean that it was made better from the original and then you said this insults Allah. I do not see that insult. I see the genius!

The word for word translation of that verse has the word "Fa-Ahasana". Which means "to make better". Here is a word for word translation just so that you understand:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=64&verse=3#(64:3:1)

So that verse would say:

(Quran 64:3) He designed you and made your design better.

Without a doubt this verse is saying that you were designed and that design you had was made BETTER. There cannot be any doubt in that.

Think about it this way if this verse wanted to say that our form is perfect as you claim, why didn't it just say "And we have made your form perfect" rather than "We have formed you and made better your form". Do you get the difference?

The Quran in many places tell us that our form was made better than the original. There is a big difference from what you claimed. Reflect!

---

Secondly, you claim that I forged evidence again falsely. All you need to do is examine the verse word for word and think a little.  http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=32&verse=6#(32:6:1)
There is nothing else you need. Just a thinking mind!

It again uses the word (ahsan) meaning to make everything better. Look at that link I just posted. Look at it twice. And read the word for word translation when it comes to verse 7. It SPECIFICALLY SAYS: "Allah has made good everything he created". That means everything that was created was made better/good. It doesn't really take that much power to understand this. Rather you say the human form is perfect. Again, if the Quran wanted to say the human form is perfect in that verse--would it have been worded this way?? Of course not!

You again accuse me of ignorance even though I use a valid source that shows you word for word translations. There really is no debate here.

Now you mentioned Quran 95:4--It is true, Man was created in the best of stature or the best of moulds. But 'best' relative to who? The other creatures on earth. How exactly does this deny evolution or the quranic support of evolution? Instead ask yourself, man was created in the best of stature. Through what mechanism?

Obviously through the mechanism the Quran mentioned in 32:7, through making everything Allah created better.
--

Now I hope you see who is being dishonesty and forging evidence here. I have displayed word-for-word translations that there is no doubt of. But nice try.

Further, you keep saying I am ignorant. But, who is it that has really displayed ignorance now that you see the word for word translation?

--
Please excuse spelling. It is late when I typed this.

[mclinkin94]

Nope

Here's what's happening.

Man observes and through evidence discovers fossils that link man with other species.
Man observes and through evidence discovers common DNA that link man with other species.
Creationists read the Bible/Quran and for no reason just blindly accept what it says over the observable evidence.

The first 2 points you made were good. The last point is half correct. You should cross out the Quran and replace it with "hadith". Adding the word "corrupted" before them also reveals a fact.

Creationists read the corrupted Bible/Quranhadith and for no reason just blindly accept what it says over the observable evidence.

[Black Muslim]

And how many times have I told you I went there and that I simply don't have the time to refute every single point for you. If you have a good point as you percieve it from that website, let me know. and I will gladly respond.

The point was to have a discussion there . Well the , whatever .

In the evolution post link, you have not disproved any of my points rather you point to hadiths and reject Quran.

If you reject Hadith , the go make your own religion . I showed you from both Qura and Sunnah that your arguments are invalid .

In the hadith post, you are partially right. Still, you haven't addressed my points.

What points exactly ? The ridiculous theory of yours that all the writers conspired ?

Unfortunately, Canadian Atheist was right when it comes to Ad hominem attacks.

Of course Atheists and people with mentalities of Atheists would agree . Truthful is the one who said that there is almost no difference between them and rejecters of Hadith  . And let's suppose I make this ad crap you repeat over and over thinking it makes anything , why not respond to the core ? Do you have the nerve say I didn't make any refutation at all ? And if you think about it , you're also making the same fallacy . The problem is that you have issues . Whenever there's something hitting your belief , you just whine and say that the other guy is a jerk who bullies you .

I don't think it would take 2 hours.

That was metaphorical .

Did I? Or did Allah?

Quran 9:101 And among those around you of the bedouins are hypocrites, and [also] from the people of Madinah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. You, [O Muhammad], do not know them, [but] We know them. We will punish them twice [in this world]; then they will be returned to a great punishment.

Pathetic indeed . I'll just copy the response which you still haven't addressed .

O one who knows not , Allah says about the companions

Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest

So I'll never accept someone to call the companions hypocrites ! Someone who says  we call others Kuffar and then does the same thing with those whom he doesn't equal their shoes !

Again , I won't stand and watch as you accuse the companions of the best of mankind of hypocrisy . Put an angry face if you want , it's nothing compared to my rage at such insolence . And if we follow your twisted line of thinking , we must accuse Quran of corruption ! Who delivered Quran to us ? Aren't they the same people whom you insult and accuse of blaspheme ?! This is one out of many other points which no rejecter of Sunnah can answer . Who should I believe ? You , an arrogant person who talks what he doesn't understand or the one who sent the prophets ?

Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest

And the first forerunners [in the faith] among the Muhajireen and the Ansar and those who followed them with good conduct - Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. That is the great attainment.

For the poor emigrants who were expelled from their homes and their properties, seeking bounty from Allah and [His] approval and supporting Allah and His Messenger, [there is also a share]. Those are the truthful.

And let me slap you out of this lala world where you live .You desperately clutch to the straw of accusing the companions . And you think that you understand the 101st verse of Tubah . Let me ask : If the prophet really didn't know the hypocrites at all his whole life , how come Allah orders him not to obey them and fight them ?

And do not pray [the funeral prayer, O Muhammad], over any of them who has died - ever - or stand at his grave. Indeed, they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger and died while they were defiantly disobedient.

And do not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites but do not harm them, and rely upon Allah . And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.

So what do we call escaping from answering by using flashy terms ? Ad what ?

Was that not a reasonable accusation based on deductive reasoning and the Quran?

Do elephants fly with their ears ?

I support whichever belief is reasonable and ration. Whichever belief is supported by logic/reason/evidence.

And you have nothing to back this up . Just deluding yourself . You talk about logic and reason and evidence while you fail to show any of them . I also claim to have proof and evidence from both Quran and Sunnah . And if we correct your line , it would become that you support whichever belief that supports your own logic and what you personally see as evidence .

It looks like you don't like the Idea that you share a comman ancestor with monkeys. It seems to bother you and you are biased against it. It seems to insult you. You must think humans are something special when the Quran demeans humans:

(Quran 76:1) Has there come on man a long period of time when he was a thing unremembered?

And once again , you demonstrate ignorance of the Quran which is innocent of you .

We have certainly created man in the best of stature;

And We have certainly honored the children of Adam and carried them on the land and sea and provided for them of the good things and preferred them over much of what We have created, with [definite] preference.

Yes , humans ARE special and favored on the rest of creations . Who obeys Allah is in a greater statue than angels whom creation makes them obey Allah in whatever he orders .
Yes , we are not cousins of monkeys . And yes , we won't just stand and watch while some claim that we are .

You have committed 3 factual errors. I have proven that the Quran without doubt supports evolution. And you have science undoubtedly
proving evolution. It takes a real deal of dishonesty denying evolution. A LOT of dishonesty.

Alright , I'll keep up with you and your Atheist buddy and say that this is a straw man fallacy if not mistaken . You just say "I proved , science proves , you're wrong . End of the story" . It would be good if you can actually back this up . And until now , I refute your point and you repeat them saying that they're right and I'm dishonest . So before you two accuse others of fallacies , look in the mirror .

Just because you have seen a few cases of forged evidence, does not mean all the evidence is forged. You are simply too ignorant in biology to even claim a point in evolution. I suggest you study. The evidence is overwhelming.  Don't be like those who still believe the Earth is flat.

Maybe the next time you mention that ad thing , I'll bring all your attacks . The difference between you and me is that I show your lack of knowledge and say it AND actually show why you are .
Yes , just because some evidence was forged doesn't mean that all is . What makes me know that all is forged is not seeing any at all . Every single case I saw was forging or taking anything unrelated and forcing it as evidence . And yes , I'm not a scientist in biology neither did I study it that much considering that I'm in my last year of high school , old man . That doesn't mean in anyway I will allow you to fill my head with your beliefs . What is this fallacy called ? I also can say that you have no degree in Islam study and so you're no one to talk . Rather , I fire your poisonous arrow back at you - Yes yes , call me a terrorist - . I don't care if you have a doctorate in biology , it doesn't change a thing wither in evolution or in your false explanations to justify it .

O.K. This does nothing at all to help your case.

That was to say I won't just go with your "flow" of biased media and believe whatever it says . It also says that there are infinite multiverses disproving God , you don't see me believing their nonsense . Yes , I know for sure that evolution is a myth and clearly wrong . As for arguing about that , I'll just have to look at responses to your claims so that I remember them and then bring it .

Apologies, I thought you refereed me to the dishonesty haruyn Yahya and Quran and darwinism. I'm working on refuting them both as we speak. I don't like dishonesty and whenever I see it--I immediately display it.

Like I said about that forum, all you have to do is present points you thought were compelling. None were to me.

A thief thinks everyone steals . The most dishonest calls others so . As for Harun Yahya , and despite his errors of doctrine , he actually does refute what you think as evidence of evolution well . Explains why he put a prize money for anyone bringing a single "real" fossil supporting it and no one ever got that prize .
And , you're the one claiming that evolution is true and that Quran supports it . So it's actually my job to disprove your points which we still don't see unless I missed them somehow .

Wow, you have really disproved my point.

You mean the point where you say "I believe evolution is right and Quran says it's right . Just like that" ? Yeah , what a brilliant argument you're making .

Remember what the Canadian Atheist said about Ad hominem. Reflect upon what you just said.  All evidence we have supports evolution. , Simply, a layperson such as yourself will need to really understand evolution before commenting at it. I do not deny your points as I have not heard them all. But I ask that you truly and without bias search for answers.

Yet again "All evidence says I'm right , end of the story" . Yet again , similar birds are attracted to each other . And yet again , you act like a Christian pope saying that I cannot understand the trinity of evolution unless I study it .
Just one sec , layperson ? As in a secular ? Either I'm getting this term wrong or that you're not looking in the mirror or that you call me so because I "separate evolution from politics" .

I don't consider that attacking you. I consider that showing you what the Quran says about people who act like you. Evidence needs to be examined.

Well back at you . It's really nonsense to talk about attacking others while doing the same . Indeed , Quran describes the likes of you well .

As far as "my atheist buddy", I support whichever belief makes sense and is reasonable regardless of where or who it comes from.

Which is why you support his belief that there is no God as in that video of yours . Yeah , a lot of sense .

After all of this time, you have finally at least attempted to respond to one of my points. Now this is how a debate should go!

And that's how it went until it froze when you simply didn't make any response .

I do not see that insult. I see the genius!

Then go check your eyes .

The word for word translation of that verse has the word "Fa-Ahasana". Which means "to make better". Here is a word for word translation just so that you understand:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=64&verse=3#(64:3:1)

Even when you try to forge , you fail horribly ! Even this page you bring says "and made good" . Where does it say "Made better" ?

Think about it this way if this verse wanted to say that our form is perfect as you claim, why didn't it just say "And we have made your form perfect" rather than "We have formed you and made better your form". Do you get the difference?

The simple answer is that it didn't . You just brought me the evidence that you're wrong ! And if you look at Surrah of Tiin , you'd find a verse saying so .

Secondly, you claim that I forged evidence again falsely. All you need to do is examine the verse word for word and think a little.  http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=32&verse=6#(32:6:1)
There is nothing else you need. Just a thinking mind!

Oh yes I do have a thinking mind and it tells me that you just brought what contradicts your argument ! ? The same as the last one .

It again uses the word (ahsan) meaning to make everything better. Look at that link I just posted. Look at it twice. And read the word for word translation when it comes to verse 7. It SPECIFICALLY SAYS: "Allah has made good everything he created". That means everything that was created was made better/good. It doesn't really take that much power to understand this. Rather you say the human form is perfect. Again, if the Quran wanted to say the human form is perfect in that verse--would it have been worded this way?? Of course not!

I see the saying of Allah appearing in you :

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].

Other signs in Quran and Hadith make it clear . But you ignorantly take one sign at a time the way it suits your desire and explain it however you like . After all of this , I started to doubt that you lack knowledge in language , rather , you're just stubborn .

You again accuse me of ignorance even though I use a valid source that shows you word for word translations. There really is no debate here.

If we really go easy on you and say that the links you brought don't actually break your argument , how am I supposed to know that they aren't hypocrites and people conspiring . Even the companions had hypocrites among them so why should we assume that there aren't until now ? I'm just showing you what your line of thinking leads to .

Now I hope you see who is being dishonesty and forging evidence here. I have displayed word-for-word translations that there is no doubt of. But nice try.
Further, you keep saying I am ignorant. But, who is it that has really displayed ignorance now that you see the word for word translation?

Yeah , nice try hiding your failure through flashy words like "trusted , authorized , no doubt , no debate here , word for word , dishonesty , working mind" . Just a load of arrogance boosters .

In the end , you bring what kills your argument , so yes , no debate here !

Once again , I'll repeat what you seem to fear answering about Sunnah . It's the last part in this post of mine .
www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1295.msg4801.html#msg4801

[mclinkin94]

The point was to have a discussion there . Well the , whatever .

I expect that you get your points. My Arabic is not as good as it should be, I am still learning. I've been taking Arabic classes for over 2 years. I've improved tremendously and it has helped me with understanding the Quran.

If you reject Hadith , the go make your own religion . I showed you from both Qura and Sunnah that your arguments are invalid .

You have not shown me from my arguments are invalid from the Quran. I showed you how your arguments are invalid from the Quran as I have even presented a word for word translation.

What points exactly ? The ridiculous theory of yours that all the writers conspired ?

Show me where exactly I said all the writers conspired.

Of course Atheists and people with mentalities of Atheists would agree . Truthful is the one who said that there is almost no difference between them and rejecters of Hadith  . And let's suppose I make this ad crap you repeat over and over thinking it makes anything , why not respond to the core ? Do you have the nerve say I didn't make any refutation at all ? And if you think about it , you're also making the same fallacy . The problem is that you have issues . Whenever there's something hitting your belief , you just whine and say that the other guy is a jerk who bullies you .

I have not made the same fallacy, i literraly present scholarly interpreations of the Quran to show my points. I don't agree with people, I agree with some of their points. Canadian Atheist made a good point.

I have responded to the core, and you have not made a refutation at all--I have shown you your mistakes through an irrefutable word for word translation. Are you going to deny such a translation. Or would you rather go with your own favorable translation?

Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest

So I'll never accept someone to call the companions hypocrites ! Someone who says  we call others Kuffar and then does the same thing with those whom he doesn't equal their shoes !

So I guess you don't accept the Quran in 19:101. I didn't call all the companions hypocrites. You completely rejected my point on that thread. I said how would Bukhari know who the hypocrites were if Muhammad himself didn't know. Big difference from how you interpreted it.

And let me slap you out of this lala world where you live .You desperately clutch to the straw of accusing the companions . And you think that you understand the 101st verse of Tubah . Let me ask : If the prophet really didn't know the hypocrites at all his whole life , how come Allah orders him not to obey them and fight them ?

Again, you are over-reaction to a completely logical point.

Premise 1: The Quran is the word of God and the word of it does not lie
Premise 2: The Quran said that some of the prophet's companions are hypocrites and only Allah knows who they are.
Conclusion: Therefore, what the Quran said about the hypocrisy of some companions is not a lie. And some companions are hypocrites.

You weren't very happy with that Quranic verse. It seems to have bothered you. How could some of the guys you really trust be hypocrites? It must be really damaging to you.

And do not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites but do not harm them, and rely upon Allah . And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.

[/quote]

So what do we call escaping from answering by using flashy terms ? Ad what ? [/quote]

Escaping from this argument. Nope, never happened. I have simply posted a quranic verse and showed you that there are hypocrites among the companions. These verses you posted just tell the prophet to fight against the hypocrites when he sees them. What's funny is this verse is also acknowledging that some companions are hypocrites. Are you saying that Muhammad was able to find all the hypocrites? No, because Quran 19:101 tells us that only Allah knows who they all are and Muhammad does not know.

Do elephants fly with their ears ?

What's that fallacy I'm thinking of?

And you have nothing to back this up . Just deluding yourself . You talk about logic and reason and evidence while you fail to show any of them . I also claim to have proof and evidence from both Quran and Sunnah . And if we correct your line , it would become that you support whichever belief that supports your own logic and what you personally see as evidence .

You have the nerve to say I have nothing to back this up while I gave you the direct word-for-word Arabic translation? Seriously? I have the Quran to back me up. This is completely reasonable.

I support whichever belief is reasonable. The Quran supports evolution, simple as that. I have demonstrated it time and time again. You like to perverse the Quran to make it say something it isnt.

Seriously, how does someone interpret this: "(Quran 64:3) ..He designed you and made your design better.. (this is the literal word for word Arabic)" as Allah made our human design perfect. If this verses wanted to say that, then it would have said "He designed you good" Rather then "he designed you and made your design good". Do you get the difference? And then you accuse me of changing the meaning of the Quran? What?

And once again , you demonstrate ignorance of the Quran which is innocent of you .

I presented a Quranic verse that deameans human character and then you attack me based on ignorance. You must really like to interpret the Quran the way you want it to say huh?

We have certainly created man in the best of stature;

And We have certainly honored the children of Adam and carried them on the land and sea and provided for them of the good things and preferred them over much of what We have created, with [definite] preference.

Indeed mankind was created in the best of moulds/stature. Through what mechanism? Quran 32:7-9 highlight it. Through the mechanism of making creation better.

Now, I do have to admit that you are partially right when it comes to this. But you must realize that the human character is also not something as special as you make it. You say that humans are too 'high' on the throne to be created from monkeys. You say that humans are too good for that. And that bothers you. That is what I was attacking. So apologies for the misunderstanding.

Allah is absolutely telling us that humans are created in a good stature, but, he also simultaneously demeans human character at the same time. 

Example:

(Quran 76:1) Has there come on man a long period of time when he was a thing unremembered?

So what is the Quran revealing? That Allah created you in the best of forms/mechanisms and preferred you over a lot of other creatures. So you should be thankful for this gift. The Quran also simultaneously tells us that just because humans are created in the best form/mechanism and preferred over other creatures still does not mean that humans are anything really special.

So does this mean that we are 'too' special to be created form monkeys? Emotionally to you, yes. Logically, no. What is so bad about monkeys? What is so wrong about being higher than them? Whatever you think is wrong is entirely subjective.

So point stands, you have a hard time emotionally grasping that monkeys and humans are cousins--because you think humans are too good for that. The Quran has also demeaned human character saying that we are still not that special--we are still close to insignificant.

Yes , humans ARE special and favored on the rest of creations . Who obeys Allah is in a greater statue than angels whom creation makes them obey Allah in whatever he orders .
Yes , we are not cousins of monkeys . And yes , we won't just stand and watch while some claim that we are .

First re-Read what I wrote above.

Next: woah there. You got something wrong. We are not preferred over all creations. We are preferred over 'most' creation. Read the verse again.

Then you some how made a weird conclusion that we are not cousins of monkeys. Where does that come from? Humans must be so high on the throne, how can they be created by monkeys?

I don't like this emotional nonsense.

Can humans still be preferred over most of creation and created in the best form/mechanism if we descended from a monkey-like ancestor? Of course we can! We were made better and more successful than the early apes. Therefore, we are preferred over them and because of a mechanism of making humans better (Quran 32:7), we were made in the best of moulds.

Alright , I'll keep up with you and your Atheist buddy and say that this is a straw man fallacy if not mistaken . You just say "I proved , science proves , you're wrong . End of the story" . It would be good if you can actually back this up . And until now , I refute your point and you repeat them saying that they're right and I'm dishonest . So before you two accuse others of fallacies , look in the mirror .

So you say that science hasn't proved evolution? Factual error.

So you say that I didn't prove the Quranic support of evolution. Another factual error.

Just because you have seen a few cases of forged evidence, does not mean all the evidence is forged. You are simply too ignorant in biology to even claim a point in evolution. I suggest you study. The evidence is overwhelming.  Don't be like those who still believe the Earth is flat.

Maybe the next time you mention that ad thing , I'll bring all your attacks . The difference between you and me is that I show your lack of knowledge and say it AND actually show why you are .
Yes , just because some evidence was forged doesn't mean that all is . What makes me know that all is forged is not seeing any at all . Every single case I saw was forging or taking anything unrelated and forcing it as evidence . And yes , I'm not a scientist in biology neither did I study it that much considering that I'm in my last year of high school , old man . That doesn't mean in anyway I will allow you to fill my head with your beliefs . What is this fallacy called ? I also can say that you have no degree in Islam study and so you're no one to talk . Rather , I fire your poisonous arrow back at you - Yes yes , call me a terrorist - . I don't care if you have a doctorate in biology , it doesn't change a thing wither in evolution or in your false explanations to justify it .

Well looks like you haven't seen enough cases and of course you are not a scientist in biology. The ignorance you display reveals that. Nor are you understanding of the Quran, the ignorance you display reveals that to.

I don't recall saying that you aren't capable of making good points, I said that you simply don't know the fact in evolution and you let that ignorance deceive you into thinking that evolution is false.

Further, you say that I don't have a degree in Islam. Of course I don't. But, I look at scholarly interpretations of the Quran and I also have my own lexicon. I even provide you me sources. You just make statements on evolution and say that all the evidence is forged and make all of these excuses because you don't like the idea of humans being formed form monkeys. Humans must be too high on the throne for that?

How many times has the human character been demeaned in the Quran?

(Quran 5:18) But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.

That was to say I won't just go with your "flow" of biased media and believe whatever it says . It also says that there are infinite multiverses disproving God , you don't see me believing their nonsense . Yes , I know for sure that evolution is a myth and clearly wrong . As for arguing about that , I'll just have to look at responses to your claims so that I remember them and then bring it .

The multiverse is not backed by evidence so I do not exactly believe we have completely understood it. I would say that Allah can create whatever he likes.  If the multiverse exists, then it doesn't at all disprove God.

Further, the Quran supports the idea of many universes:

Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,

The Quran uses the word "heavens and the Earth" To mean the universe. The Quran uses the word for "worlds" to mean places beyond the heavens and the Earth.

A thief thinks everyone steals . The most dishonest calls others so . As for Harun Yahya , and despite his errors of doctrine , he actually does refute what you think as evidence of evolution well . Explains why he put a prize money for anyone bringing a single "real" fossil supporting it and no one ever got that prize .
And , you're the one claiming that evolution is true and that Quran supports it . So it's actually my job to disprove your points which we still don't see unless I missed them somehow .

Looks like you will enjoy my article refuting him? I'm about 25% done, It should be done by January.

The Quran does support evolution. I have shown you time and time again. I don't understand this unwilling nature of yours.

You mean the point where you say "I believe evolution is right and Quran says it's right . Just like that" ? Yeah , what a brilliant argument you're making .

I do believe evolution is right. And the Quran does say it is right. Just like that. Yeah. Its not necessarily an argument, it is a stating of fact. I have displayed my arguments later in that post 

Yet again "All evidence says I'm right , end of the story" . Yet again , similar birds are attracted to each other . And yet again , you act like a Christian pope saying that I cannot understand the trinity of evolution unless I study it .
Just one sec , layperson ? As in a secular ? Either I'm getting this term wrong or that you're not looking in the mirror or that you call me so because I "separate evolution from politics" .

You cannot understand evolution or the trinity or anything for that matter, unless you study it. Further, you cannot deny something you don't understand and call yourself honest.

Well back at you . It's really nonsense to talk about attacking others while doing the same . Indeed , Quran describes the likes of you well .

You are right, the Quran describes people who read and reflect upon the Quran to find Allah. Just like me.

Which is why you support his belief that there is no God as in that video of yours . Yeah , a lot of sense .

There is no proof of God. that is fact and the Quran mentions it. We can debate this at another time. It would have been better if you haven't blocked me from YouTube. How noble of you.

I do not see that insult. I see the genius!

Then go check your eyes .

Are you saying that Allah creation of the world is stupid? Take that back immediately and repent.

The word for word translation of that verse has the word "Fa-Ahasana". Which means "to make better". Here is a word for word translation just so that you understand:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=64&verse=3#(64:3:1)

Even when you try to forge , you fail horribly ! Even this page you bring says "and made good" . Where does it say "Made better" ?

This is your weakest part of the argument. Read the verse again.  I cannot believe you actually made that argument. If I make something good after I created it, what did I do? I made it better. that is exactly what the Quran says.

You are not just supposed to just read the Quran, but you are supposed to reflect upon it!

Quran 47:24 Do they not then reflect on the Quran? Nay, on the hearts there are locks.

Think about it this way if this verse wanted to say that our form is perfect as you claim, why didn't it just say "And we have made your form perfect" rather than "We have formed you and made better your form". Do you get the difference?

The simple answer is that it didn't . You just brought me the evidence that you're wrong ! And if you look at Surrah of Tiin , you'd find a verse saying so .

Exactly, it didn't. The verse said that we have been formed and our form was made better. And because of that process: Surah at Tiiin tells us we have been made in the best of moulds.

You cannot just deny one part of the Quran and accept another. They all go together.

This is refusal and unwillingness on your part. The verses are clear.

Secondly, you claim that I forged evidence again falsely. All you need to do is examine the verse word for word and think a little.  http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=32&verse=6#(32:6:1)
There is nothing else you need. Just a thinking mind!

Oh yes I do have a thinking mind and it tells me that you just brought what contradicts your argument ! ? The same as the last one .

But you haven't brought what contradicts my argument. By your logic, you have presented a verse that contradicts the Quran! LOL. Nope that is not what (Quran 95:4) was saying at all.

Quran 32:7 says that creation was made good after its initial design and that is how mankind was created. Quran 95:4 says that humans were made in the best of moulds/stature.

Now connect the dots.

1.) Creation and humans were made better than the initial design
2.) Humans were made in the best of mechanism/shape
 The connection: Through the process of making everything Allah creates better, humans were made in the best of mechanism/moulds/shape.

You interpret the verses together, you do NOT favor one verse over the other! That is wrong!

It again uses the word (ahsan) meaning to make everything better. Look at that link I just posted. Look at it twice. And read the word for word translation when it comes to verse 7. It SPECIFICALLY SAYS: "Allah has made good everything he created". That means everything that was created was made better/good. It doesn't really take that much power to understand this. Rather you say the human form is perfect. Again, if the Quran wanted to say the human form is perfect in that verse--would it have been worded this way?? Of course not!

I see the saying of Allah appearing in you :

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].

Other signs in Quran and Hadith make it clear . But you ignorantly take one sign at a time the way it suits your desire and explain it however you like . After all of this , I started to doubt that you lack knowledge in language , rather , you're just stubborn .

Again, you have failed to address me point! Why do you keep changing the subject?? I think you and I both know that I am right on this one.

That verse is clear:

(Quran 32:7) ...has made everything He created BETTER, and He began the creation of the human...

And then you say the Hadith makes this clear. Does the Hadith need to make this verse any clearer?

You again accuse me of ignorance even though I use a valid source that shows you word for word translations. There really is no debate here.

If we really go easy on you and say that the links you brought don't actually break your argument , how am I supposed to know that they aren't hypocrites and people conspiring . Even the companions had hypocrites among them so why should we assume that there aren't until now ? I'm just showing you what your line of thinking leads to .

[/quote]

The links I brought are literal word for word translations. You know Arabic and you know better. The word-for-word understanding is important.

Again, you change the subject. It seems to be a mechanism to avoid my clear points. Again, I know deep inside you believe I am right on this one, you are just unwilling.

Now I hope you see who is being dishonesty and forging evidence here. I have displayed word-for-word translations that there is no doubt of. But nice try.
Further, you keep saying I am ignorant. But, who is it that has really displayed ignorance now that you see the word for word translation?

Yeah , nice try hiding your failure through flashy words like "trusted , authorized , no doubt , no debate here , word for word , dishonesty , working mind" . Just a load of arrogance boosters .

You no Arabic. That is the sad part. Denying a word for word translation of the Quran? You can go word for word. You know Arabic! Seriously, this is just dishonesty to a new level. This defense mechanism you use is simply not working for you, it does you no favor. Read the Quran word for word and translate it word for word. There are many lexicons you can buy, many websites you can use. The Quran is so clear on that, but you like you perverse it!

In the end , you bring what kills your argument , so yes , no debate here !

Nothing killed my argument except your incompetence.

[abdullah]

assalamualykum
I hope y'all realize y'all are going in circles. Brother Black Muslim, the only thing that is contradictory with the ahadith is human evolution, all other forms of evolution are not contradictory with the ahadith. Anyways the evidence for human evolution is extremely weak. As for bro mclinkin their is no point of refuting harun yahya as his points are extremely weak. Also why do u keep ignoring my argument for the 100% authenticity of the sunnah

[mclinkin94]

assalamualykum
I hope y'all realize y'all are going in circles. Brother Black Muslim, the only thing that is contradictory with the ahadith is human evolution, all other forms of evolution are not contradictory with the ahadith. Anyways the evidence for human evolution is extremely weak. As for bro mclinkin their is no point of refuting harun yahya as his points are extremely weak. Also why do u keep ignoring my argument for the 100% authenticity of the sunnah

Extremely weak is an understatement! The sad part is Muslims are sourcing him as some kind of proof.

I am not ignoring your argument, I am further examining hadiths as we speak. 100% authenticity is not a fact, not so far to my understanding. Its like Christians claiming their bible has 100% authenticity even though it has clear contradictions within it and rejects reality!

[Black Muslim]

I expect that you get your points. My Arabic is not as good as it should be, I am still learning. I've been taking Arabic classes for over 2 years. I've improved tremendously and it has helped me with understanding the Quran.

You do realize it is possible to do it in English , right ? And from what we see , those lessons didn't help much or at all .

You have not shown me from my arguments are invalid from the Quran. I showed you how your arguments are invalid from the Quran as I have even presented a word for word translation.

Dishonesty , huh ? as we say "He accuses me of his disease and slips away" . What really happened is that you made some absurd theories to justify rejecting half the religion . And I simply answered them . That's a subject we can go through later .

Show me where exactly I said all the writers conspired.

Remember saying that they were all Persians and only appeared after the fall of the empire ? If this isn't what you meant , what were you hinting ?

I have not made the same fallacy, i literraly present scholarly interpreations of the Quran to show my points. I don't agree with people, I agree with some of their points. Canadian Atheist made a good point.

I have responded to the core, and you have not made a refutation at all--I have shown you your mistakes through an irrefutable word for word translation. Are you going to deny such a translation. Or would you rather go with your own favorable translation?

Why do I feel like I'm dealing with a kid ? The same translator you brag about shuts your argument ! Are you really blind or what ?! And instead of ranting "I made an argument that you can never address" why not actually try ? And I DON'T care what kind of a translator you bring . On what basis do you say this site isn't biased or wrong at all ? You accused the first scholars of so and now you act like these are angels ?! What makes it worse is how you disprove yourself with what you bring ! There is no difference between this and saying that I should believe evolution because "Scientists" believe in it . The same way Atheists say we should be so because there are Atheists among scientists .

So I guess you don't accept the Quran in 19:101. I didn't call all the companions hypocrites. You completely rejected my point on that thread. I said how would Bukhari know who the hypocrites were if Muhammad himself didn't know. Big difference from how you interpreted it.

THAT'S THE POINT ! Do you really fail that horribly in understanding or are you acting like you don't understand ?! I bring you signs saying that the prophet DID know the hypocrites as Allah told him and I get this in response ? YES , you ARE accusing them all with hypocrisy since you say we can't trust any of them . The funny thing is , since we can't trust them , anyone can say they corrupted Quran . Another point killing your doctrine of rejecting Hadith and you still don't answer .

Again, you are over-reaction to a completely logical point.
Premise 1: The Quran is the word of God and the word of it does not lie
Premise 2: The Quran said that some of the prophet's companions are hypocrites and only Allah knows who they are.
Conclusion: Therefore, what the Quran said about the hypocrisy of some companions is not a lie. And some companions are hypocrites.
You weren't very happy with that Quranic verse. It seems to have bothered you. How could some of the guys you really trust be hypocrites? It must be really damaging to you.

You really need serious treatment . I don't know if it's blindness or madness of greatness - you wish - or something else . What logic are you talking about ?! The sun can be green with your logic ! I might lose my mind trying to reason with you !
Your line of thinking is completely misleading and twisting the meanings . Are you that much a coward not to answer a verse of the same book you - unjustly - claim to follow ? Quran itself says that Allah told the prophet of the hypocrites . So yes , Allah doesn't lie , but YOU LIE .

I have simply posted a quranic verse and showed you that there are hypocrites among the companions. These verses you posted just tell the prophet to fight against the hypocrites when he sees them. What's funny is this verse is also acknowledging that some companions are hypocrites. Are you saying that Muhammad was able to find all the hypocrites? No, because Quran 19:101 tells us that only Allah knows who they all are and Muhammad does not know.

You should be arrested for trying to make fun of people's intellect . Already explained , you don't just reject Sunnah , you even reject what you don't like of Quran .

You have the nerve to say I have nothing to back this up while I gave you the direct word-for-word Arabic translation?

I'll use your same logic and say that I don't trust this site - which actually works against your belief - because I can't know who's a Muslim and who's a hypocrite . How can we ever know that there are any Muslims ? Maybe I am one of the hypocrites . Maybe Osama is . Maybe you are . Of course , I'm just talking while standing from your point . Screw the translator . You rejected greater and more trusted sources . But of course , you'd do anything possible to prove this madness .

I have the Quran to back me up. This is completely reasonable.

Quran is innocent of you .

I support whichever belief is reasonable. The Quran supports evolution, simple as that. I have demonstrated it time and time again.

Oh really ? How come you failed time and time again in bringing a single verse saying so ? I'll repeat , you bring what proves you wrong !

Seriously, how does someone interpret this: "(Quran 64:3) ..He designed you and made your design better.. (this is the literal word for word Arabic)" as Allah made our human design perfect. If this verses wanted to say that, then it would have said "He designed you good" Rather then "he designed you and made your design good". Do you get the difference? And then you accuse me of changing the meaning of the Quran? What?

We're not to interpret this because it's simply NOT from Quran . You just forge verses too !
http://quran.com/64
"Hey Johny , make me a sandwich , and make it good will ya ?" Oh yes , if we go with you , it would mean that the sandwich evolved !!

Indeed mankind was created in the best of moulds/stature. Through what mechanism? Quran 32:7-9 highlight it. Through the mechanism of making creation better.

Oh no mister . You see , Quran says Allah "Created people in best shape" . It just says creating . No evolution here . Of course , this isn't the main argument I stand on but just to show you how it gets when we explain verses in the way you do by cutting them and making them however one likes .

I don't like this emotional nonsense.

Uh-huh , the fake face is falling off again I see . Well then , we'll see who's being emotional and demonstrating issues .

So you say that science hasn't proved evolution? Factual error.

So you say that I didn't prove the Quranic support of evolution. Another factual error.

Did your blindness get to me ? Because I don't see you proving it . You just say - again - that you're right and I'm wrong .

Well looks like you haven't seen enough cases and of course you are not a scientist in biology. The ignorance you display reveals that. Nor are you understanding of the Quran, the ignorance you display reveals that to.

Well crack that make-up more pal . I would be more comfortable if you come flat out instead of all this acting . Ignorance , huh ? Says the one who refutes himself and still says that what he refuted is right .

Further, you say that I don't have a degree in Islam. Of course I don't. But, I look at scholarly interpretations of the Quran and I also have my own lexicon. I even provide you me sources. You just make statements on evolution and say that all the evidence is forged and make all of these excuses because you don't like the idea of humans being formed form monkeys. Humans must be too high on the throne for that?

And what do we call the fallacy of lying that the other said something he didn't ? I said that evolution is wrong simply because it has no proof at all . Not in Quran OR in science .

Yes , humans are reminded over and over of how they are born and that they were nothing . It still doesn't change the fact that they were favored on the worlds . And trying to make it look like I refuse this myth because I think we're too high is a real cheap shot .

The multiverse is not backed by evidence so I do not exactly believe we have completely understood it. I would say that Allah can create whatever he likes.  If the multiverse exists, then it doesn't at all disprove God.

Further, the Quran supports the idea of many universes:

Oh yeah ? they claim there is , so what do you say ? And to make it get to you , they mean that since the universes are infinite then they weren't created and there is no God . Of course , there is nothing to back this nonsense .
Quran talks about other universe yes , but you are not to witness them with your puny knowledge . If mankind and Jins could escape the heavens then let them try .

Looks like you will enjoy my article refuting him? I'm about 25% done, It should be done by January.

It doesn't matter if you prove him wrong . I don't base my belief on others . But I just have a hunch that what you call refutation is nothing more than a load of nonsense .

The Quran does support evolution. I have shown you time and time again. I don't understand this unwilling nature of yours.

Well , I couldn't understand the huge amount of ignorance you demonstrate . Get used to it , we don't always get what we want .

I do believe evolution is right. And the Quran does say it is right. Just like that. Yeah. Its not necessarily an argument, it is a stating of fact. I have displayed my arguments later in that post 

Yeah yeah , keep with the fake smiles . They'll fall off eventually . And arguments ? If you call ignoring everything you can't answer , forging verses to support you , and using flashy terms as arguments , then yes , they would be arguments .

You cannot understand evolution or the trinity or anything for that matter, unless you study it. Further, you cannot deny something you don't understand and call yourself honest.

Well , you also didn't study a thing in Islam , so you can't understand it . We only need someone to make a "You don't say" face here .
I do know of what you take as evidence for your doctrine . And I know enough to say that it's crap . The real dishonest person is the one altering Qruan here .

There is no proof of God. that is fact and the Quran mentions it. We can debate this at another time. It would have been better if you haven't blocked me from YouTube. How noble of you.

Noble or not , here we are arguing . And since you don't believe there is proof for God , go make your own religion !

Are you saying that Allah creation of the world is stupid? Take that back immediately and repent.

Go check your eyes again because you seem to see everything in outrageous ways . I'm saying that YOUR view of things is stupid Clear enough ?

This is your weakest part of the argument. Read the verse again.  I cannot believe you actually made that argument. If I make something good after I created it, what did I do? I made it better. that is exactly what the Quran says.

Oh lord , give me strength !! How am I supposed to make it reach your thick skull ?! You first believed and then based your view of the entire universe on that false belief . That's how you fake evidence . You just decide that it's right . And when something appears which you want an explanation for , you just say "evolution" . The same as worship of gaps . If I was a language teacher I would give you minus 10 !  Since you do understand some Arabic , read this . If you still don't understand , there is no hope !
http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?idfrom=3477&idto=3477&bk_no=48&ID=2939

You cannot just deny one part of the Quran and accept another. They all go together.

Say that to yourself in the mirror . You're the one who accused the companions thorough miserable explanation of one verse and STILL don't answer me bringing another verse blowing your argument .

The links I brought are literal word for word translations. You know Arabic and you know better. The word-for-word understanding is important.
Again, you change the subject. It seems to be a mechanism to avoid my clear points. Again, I know deep inside you believe I am right on this one, you are just unwilling.

Pathetic indeed . So they are word to word translation ? So what ? That doesn't prove them right . And again , you don't answer the fact that they are against you .
And allow me to slap you out of your lala world once again . I know deep inside that you're plain wrong . You're the deluded one who thinks that he's right and the majority of people are unwilling . You're the one who think he's a genius who discovered what the entire Islamic nation didn't for over a thousand years . So enough with the drama and try actually answering something .

You no Arabic.

I is sorry sir . I no understand you .

That is the sad part. Denying a word for word translation of the Quran? You can go word for word. You know Arabic! Seriously, this is just dishonesty to a new level. This defense mechanism you use is simply not working for you, it does you no favor. Read the Quran word for word and translate it word for word. There are many lexicons you can buy, many websites you can use. The Quran is so clear on that, but you like you perverse it!

And what's your point after this wall of rant and whining ? Again - for over 9000 times - the same website you use is against you . And if we assume that it isn't , I won't trust it because there can be hypocrites among its admins . If you want to deem them as holy figures which never make mistakes or lie then you may just go worship them .

And for this reason , for this headache , I stopped arguing with you before . I'm not even sure anymore if the most brilliant man on earth can ever make you understand ! A huge ego and arrogance alongside ignorance that doesn't lack in size as well . What a deadly combination ! I'll need a lot of aspirin if I'm to keep going like that . If the next post is the same avoidance of answering and ego boosting , I might just stop so that I can keep my sanity .

[abdullah]

Salam bro mclinkin
I already showed you the difference between the ahadith and the sunnah. The sunnah has been passed on by so many people in each generation tthat it is impossible for it to have been corrupted. Instead of refuting harun yahya try to refute the Christians over at evolutionnews.org they have much stronger points

[mclinkin94]

I've ignored most of the rhetorical nonsense. I will respond only to the Quranic evolutionary points due to a lack of time.

Why do I feel like I'm dealing with a kid ? The same translator you brag about shuts your argument ! Are you really blind or what ?! And instead of ranting "I made an argument that you can never address" why not actually try ? And I DON'T care what kind of a translator you bring . On what basis do you say this site isn't biased or wrong at all ? You accused the first scholars of so and now you act like these are angels ?! What makes it worse is how you disprove yourself with what you bring ! There is no difference between this and saying that I should believe evolution because "Scientists" believe in it . The same way Atheists say we should be so because there are Atheists among scientists . 

First rhetorical statement denied. The translation I use did not shut my argument, in fact--nothing so far from you has.

Next rhetorical statement denied.

You should care what translator I bring. An arabic speak like yourself should be able to see the word for word translation. This thing with denying that translation is nothing more than a defense mechanism on your part. You are choosing to willfully deny the clear quranic basis for evolution. I'm not sure how much patience I have for this game.

Other rhetorical statements denied.

THAT'S THE POINT ! Do you really fail that horribly in understanding or are you acting like you don't understand ?! I bring you signs saying that the prophet DID know the hypocrites as Allah told him and I get this in response ? YES , you ARE accusing them all with hypocrisy since you say we can't trust any of them . The funny thing is , since we can't trust them , anyone can say they corrupted Quran . Another point killing your doctrine of rejecting Hadith and you still don't answer .

Muhammad did not get to know all the hypocrites. Not one verse says that. Muhammad with the aid of Allah investigated. That does not mean he was able to erradicate all hypocrites. Lets not change verse meanings here.

We have Quranic manuscripts, that's all we need to know.

Rhetorical statements denied once again.

You really need serious treatment . I don't know if it's blindness or madness of greatness - you wish - or something else . What logic are you talking about ?! The sun can be green with your logic ! I might lose my mind trying to reason with you !
Your line of thinking is completely misleading and twisting the meanings . Are you that much a coward not to answer a verse of the same book you - unjustly - claim to follow ? Quran itself says that Allah told the prophet of the hypocrites . So yes , Allah doesn't lie , but YOU LIE .

More rhetoric. I read a verse to you and you deny a Quranic verse? I don't like to deny the Quran.

You should be arrested for trying to make fun of people's intellect . Already explained , you don't just reject Sunnah , you even reject what you don't like of Quran .

Ironic coming from you.

I'll use your same logic and say that I don't trust this site - which actually works against your belief - because I can't know who's a Muslim and who's a hypocrite . How can we ever know that there are any Muslims ? Maybe I am one of the hypocrites . Maybe Osama is . Maybe you are . Of course , I'm just talking while standing from your point . Screw the translator . You rejected greater and more trusted sources . But of course , you'd do anything possible to prove this madness .

Look at that, presented with proof and you being an Arabic speaker. Willful ignorance. I hope you can see yourself through a mirror.

You are given clear proof. You speak Arabic to verify the proof. You refuse to acknowledge the proof. You neglect your Arabic ability. Ironically, that is the definition of dishonesty. Like I said, I'm not very forgiving of dishonesty.

Oh really ? How come you failed time and time again in bringing a single verse saying so ? I'll repeat , you bring what proves you wrong !

More dishonesty.

Seriously, how does someone interpret this: "(Quran 64:3) ..He designed you and made your design better.. (this is the literal word for word Arabic)" as Allah made our human design perfect. If this verses wanted to say that, then it would have said "He designed you good" Rather then "he designed you and made your design good". Do you get the difference? And then you accuse me of changing the meaning of the Quran? What?

We're not to interpret this because it's simply NOT from Quran . You just forge verses too !
http://quran.com/64
"Hey Johny , make me a sandwich , and make it good will ya ?" Oh yes , if we go with you , it would mean that the sandwich evolved !!

Appeal to ridicule fallacy.

More rhetoric, introducing humor to a completely serious argument to reject the Quran. Dishonesty has reached a level worse than most anti-muslims. In fact, the team at Answering-Islam are less dishonest than you.

Lets go again:

(Quran 64:3) ..Formed you and made good your form..

Why didn't it just say, Allah made good your form. Rather it said, he had formed you and made that form good.

You need to be honest with yourself.

And again, the Quran repeated itself:

Quran 40:64 (He formed you and made good your form).

Now while you try to be honest, why would the Quran repeat the same thing exactly twice in the same manner. Why didn't it just say "Allah created us good". That is what you think it says, but it is clearly NOT.

Those verses are saying that your form was made good/better. But you like to reject the Quran, don't you?

Go to any Arabic speaker and ask what (ahsana) means. It means to make better, to make good from the original. But evidence doesn't convince the unwilling.

Indeed mankind was created in the best of moulds/stature. Through what mechanism? Quran 32:7-9 highlight it. Through the mechanism of making creation better.

Oh no mister . You see , Quran says Allah "Created people in best shape" . It just says creating . No evolution here . Of course , this isn't the main argument I stand on but just to show you how it gets when we explain verses in the way you do by cutting them and making them however one likes .

Is this a debate or are you just going to reject everything I say without some reason?

Can you create through evolution? Yes. That's it. Not much to it.

You make something simple, complex. Interpret this verse in light of other verses.

Well crack that make-up more pal . I would be more comfortable if you come flat out instead of all this acting . Ignorance , huh ? Says the one who refutes himself and still says that what he refuted is right .

You make a claim without evidence. So I deny it without evidence. I have not refuted myself. You haven't refuted me either.

.

Yes , humans are reminded over and over of how they are born and that they were nothing . It still doesn't change the fact that they were favored on the worlds . And trying to make it look like I refuse this myth because I think we're too high is a real cheap shot .

What exactly were you implying that humans were favored over the worlds? You obviously were saying that we are too high to have a common ancestor with monkeys.

Oh yeah ? they claim there is , so what do you say ? And to make it get to you , they mean that since the universes are infinite then they weren't created and there is no God . Of course , there is nothing to back this nonsense .
Quran talks about other universe yes , but you are not to witness them with your puny knowledge . If mankind and Jins could escape the heavens then let them try .

The Quran talks about other universes. Done. Nothing else to it.

Well , you also didn't study a thing in Islam , so you can't understand it . We only need someone to make a "You don't say" face here .
I do know of what you take as evidence for your doctrine . And I know enough to say that it's crap . The real dishonest person is the one altering Qruan here .

Factual error.

Noble or not , here we are arguing . And since you don't believe there is proof for God , go make your own religion !

We can debate this separately. I'm not fond of rejecting Quran like you.

This is your weakest part of the argument. Read the verse again.  I cannot believe you actually made that argument. If I make something good after I created it, what did I do? I made it better. that is exactly what the Quran says.

Oh lord , give me strength !! How am I supposed to make it reach your thick skull ?! You first believed and then based your view of the entire universe on that false belief . That's how you fake evidence . You just decide that it's right . And when something appears which you want an explanation for , you just say "evolution" . The same as worship of gaps . If I was a language teacher I would give you minus 10 !  Since you do understand some Arabic , read this . If you still don't understand , there is no hope !
http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?idfrom=3477&idto=3477&bk_no=48&ID=2939

Rhetoric denied. False accusations denied.

Why didn't you just refute my argument? The verse is clear, you know it is. You just have some kind of complex where you always have to be right. The insecurity that is displayed is intense. I present a verse and I show you the Arabic.

Here is a word for word. You tell me I don't know Arabic. Here is also a lexicon I found on the web.

"Ahsana" means good. Lets look at the verse again:

Quran 32:7 Who made good (ahsana) everything which He created and began the creation of man.

Everything which was created was made good. Simple as that. Lets not add or delete any meaning to that verse. But, you can't do that, can you?

You cannot just deny one part of the Quran and accept another. They all go together.

Say that to yourself in the mirror . You're the one who accused the companions thorough miserable explanation of one verse and STILL don't answer me bringing another verse blowing your argument .

You declined what I just said about evolution and you changed the subject to companions again. Why don't you address my arguments.

Did I accuse the companions or did the Quran. You know the answer. Leave this subject. Go back to evolution. Why are you reluctant to see the clear Quran? The divine Quran, not the man-made aspect of your faith.

The links I brought are literal word for word translations. You know Arabic and you know better. The word-for-word understanding is important.
Again, you change the subject. It seems to be a mechanism to avoid my clear points. Again, I know deep inside you believe I am right on this one, you are just unwilling.

Pathetic indeed . So they are word to word translation ? So what ? That doesn't prove them right . And again , you don't answer the fact that they are against you .
And allow me to slap you out of your lala world once again . I know deep inside that you're plain wrong . You're the deluded one who thinks that he's right and the majority of people are unwilling . You're the one who think he's a genius who discovered what the entire Islamic nation didn't for over a thousand years . So enough with the drama and try actually answering something .

You deny the Quran. That does prove them right, you know Arabic. You know what the meaning of the verb "Ahsana" is. I know you do. But you are reluctant. Evidence doesn't convince the unwilling.

Then you again demean the translation. Irregardless of the word for word translation, you know Arabic. The word-for-word that I provided was to ensure you didn't overlook anything. But again, you deny it. The verse is clear, creation was made better. Done.

Then you commit the "appeal to tradition" fallacy. So, I deny that argument.

That is the sad part. Denying a word for word translation of the Quran? You can go word for word. You know Arabic! Seriously, this is just dishonesty to a new level. This defense mechanism you use is simply not working for you, it does you no favor. Read the Quran word for word and translate it word for word. There are many lexicons you can buy, many websites you can use. The Quran is so clear on that, but you like you perverse it!

And what's your point after this wall of rant and whining ? Again - for over 9000 times - the same website you use is against you . And if we assume that it isn't , I won't trust it because there can be hypocrites among its admins . If you want to deem them as holy figures which never make mistakes or lie then you may just go worship them .

The same website is against, you! You have not shown me how this website is against me. You provided one verse that says humans were created in the best of moulds. And then you say that this verse denies another part of the Quran. You are implying that you believe that there is a contradiction in the Quran. I tell you that both those verses are accurate. Lets investigate again:

(Quran 95:4) We have certainly created man in the best of stature--Does this deny evolution? No. Does this deny 32:7 (if you say it does then you are implying a contradiction-but it doesn't deny 32:7)

By what mechanism was mankind created in the best of moulds/stature? By the mechanism of making creation better as detailed in 32:7.

And for this reason , for this headache , I stopped arguing with you before . I'm not even sure anymore if the most brilliant man on earth can ever make you understand ! A huge ego and arrogance alongside ignorance that doesn't lack in size as well . What a deadly combination ! I'll need a lot of aspirin if I'm to keep going like that . If the next post is the same avoidance of answering and ego boosting , I might just stop so that I can keep my sanity .

Yeah, the headache I give to you. I challenge your beliefs, and you like to hide from that. You are biased against evolution without evidence to back you up. You deny the clear quranic support by appealing to fallacies and more rhetoric.

Lets highlight it again and this time, I will present both the Arabic and the English. There cannot be any counterargument to a clear sentence. "If I say that cat is brown", Then I say that cat is brown.

Quran 64:3 وَصَوَّرَكُمْ فَأَحْسَنَ صُوَرَكُمْ ۖ

1st block: And he formed you
2nd block: And made good
3rd block: your forms.

That's it. We were formed and our form was made good. Denying this is dishonest. You know Arabic.

Not only did we get formed, but our form was made good/better.

Lets think one more time, If this verse wanted to say that Allah formed you Good, why didn't it just say "And Allah formed you good" rather than "ALlah formed you and made your forms good"?

Quran 32:7 الَّذِي أَحْسَنَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقَهُ

1st block: The one who
2nd block: made good
3rd block: Everything
4th block: He created.

That's it. Everything that was created was made good. Allah made everything he created good. If something that was created was made good. What was it made? Better, it was made better.

Not only that look at the entire verse!

Quran 32:7 Who made good everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

This verse is linking the process creation being made good/better to the creation of mankind. This is implying that mankind was formed in the same manner. A process of making creation good/better (ahsana). Not only that, that verse also uses the word for "BEGAN", this further implies the process of making everything Allah created better. So the creation of man from earth began and Allah will make it better to complete the human

Quran 32:8 Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained..

The verse right after says that AFTER the beginning of the creation of man, sexual reproduction formed. This is an improvement. A process of making creation better.

Quran 32:9 Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

After sexual reproduction, you got further proportioned (MADE BETTER!) and given higher consciousness (MADE BETTER!).




Having to break it down to this extent for you to understand is just....I don't know what it is. The best word is your blind unwilling nature.

[mclinkin94]

Salam bro mclinkin
I already showed you the difference between the ahadith and the sunnah. The sunnah has been passed on by so many people in each generation tthat it is impossible for it to have been corrupted. Instead of refuting harun yahya try to refute the Christians over at evolutionnews.org they have much stronger points

I agree, some parts of the Sunnah have been passed down through generations...but unfortunately, parts of the sunnah are influenced by hadiths.

Also it is not impossible for traditions to get corrupted. All it takes is a few scholars with a disagreement, and you have 2 sets of people following different Sunnahs that deviate from the initial.

Further, thanks for that website--I will work on that too.

I want to refute Harun Yahya because Muslims source him every-time I debate evolution with them. As if he makes compelling points. So instead of dealing with everyone';s misunderstanding--I can just refer them to my article debunking Harun.