My God ! How do you come up with these ideas ?!
Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Ibrahim - peace upon them all - from the rest of mankind . Meaning they are above others for they were chosen to be prophets and deliver the message of Allah to people . And in the second sign Allah says they are descendants FROM EACH OTHER . The order is Adam , Noah , and Ibrahim peace upon them all
Allah chose Adam from the rest of mankind, YES! You finally get it!
Who did Allah choose Adam over? The other creations that existed with Adam.
Who did Allah choose Noah over? The other humans that existed with Noah.
Who did Allah choose the family of Abraham over? The other humans that existed with Abraham.
Notice verse 2:30;
(Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority.Who was Adam succeeded over in EARTH? Other animals.
This is nothing more than a literal interpretation of the verse.
Next, the verse does not say they are descendants from each other, that's what you want it to read. The verse says 'descendants'. some of them (baʿḍuhā) from others.
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=3&verse=34#(3:34:1) IF you are telling me that your Arabic is better than the Quranic scholars, you got another thing coming.
I was right indeed . I'm dealing with someone abandoning half of Islam . And you are absolutely not someone to say that Hadith is corrupted
I haven't abandoned anything. A rationally honest person cannot accept hadiths as the word of the prophet. Sorry, I consider myself intellectually honest.
I really despise people putting words in my mouth . Father Adam WAS created to live in paradise and then sin and repent . Wither it's the real paradise or a paradise on Earth doesn't matter here . The story is in the Quran which you claim to follow.
Considering the Quran, you HAVE to say that Adam was created in Earth. I don't care what part of Earth or 'paradise' on Earth. That is just an excuse on your part to justify the invalid hadith.
From the sayings of the prophet peace upon him AND Quran which you claim to follow alone
Where does the Quran say sand, then mud then clay?
God perfected what he created WHEN he created it . But you want to force the idea that it MUST mean evolving from something to another.
You don't understand the logic here. YES, God perfected what he created. YES. What does that mean? That creation had a process of perfection. This is too much excuse making on your part to deny reality.
Correct me if wrong . The first one says that Allah perfected what he created which means that whichever he created was done in a perfect way . No evolution . The same one says that the beginning of creating mankind was of mud . Here , we might have two explanations :
1 - The meant "Human" is our father Adam . In that case , his creation was of mud . No evolution . After that , the lineage after Adam - peace upon him - was through sexual intercourse of husband and wife . No evolution . Then , this sperm in the womb of the mother is formed by God's will and then a spirit is blown in it . Again , no evolution .
2 - The meant "Human" is mankind in general . In this case , the first stage means our father Adam - peace upon him - himself whom was created of mud . And then , the lineage of mankind was through menial water (Sperm) . Again , this water was formed and then given a soul by Allah . Yet again , no evolution .
If it meant Adam (as you agree with): Then Adam would have been created AFTER sexual reproduction.
If it meant mankind: Then mankind would have been created AFTER sexual reproduction and given higher consciousness.I believe this verse was referring to Adam because other verses in the Quran referred to Adam as being proportioned. Either way, evolution is supported.
You also refused to even accept the 3rd possibility
3-It meant mankind has went through a process of perfection. After the BEGINNING of the process, he created sexual reproduction (with semen) and after that process, he fashioned us and given us consciousness.
I'm going to quote Yusif Ali's commentary (the one I have available at hand): "
Man is asked to contemplate his own humble beginning. His material body (apart from life) is a piece of earth or clay, which is another term for primeval matter.Matter is therefore the first stage, but even matter was not self-created. It was created by Allah.""Then comes life and the reproduction of life."After fertilization of ovum by the sperm, an individual life comes into existence, and it is gradually fashioned into shape, its limbs are formed; its animal life begins to function; all the beautiful adaptations come into play.
The fourth stage here mentioned is that of distinctive Man, into whom Allah's spirit is breathed. Then he rises higher than animals.^Do you understand now. LIfe came from Matter, which then sexual reproduction occurred, which then allowed mankind to be gradually fashioned into shape. The Animal gets created, and the fourth stages is what makes Animals different from humans, humans gain higher consciousness.
I'm sorry brother, the evidence here is too overwhelming!
No one is twisting the meanings other than you . And no one is ignoring what the other says except you ! If you're so weak at language and logic then that's your problem and not ours . If we really go on with you and say that the verses may have different meanings then the sayings of the prophets are the bottom line because they explain in detail the creation of father Adam . Again , if you accuse Hadith of corruption while you know 0 information about it , that's your problem . Another funny thing is : People talk to me about not forcing my opinion on others - And this is nothing to have an opinion about - while you're trying to force yours on us . You don't even say "This might be an explanation" . No , you're saying "This is the ONLY explanation"
I'm going to disregard personal attacks (as if they disprove my arguments). Why do the verses have different meanings from the supposed sayings of the prophet? Because they are not sayings of the prophet. Simple and pure. I've been looking at hadiths and their science for a quite a while now, no rational person can seriously say they are really what the prophet said, uncorrupted--even if it was unintentional. Secondly, the Quran made it clear that its verses' interpretations are not entirely known by humans.
This is a red herring, please go back to the topic.
YET again , your ignorance of language is your own problem . The verse says "Human" and that's called a noun of a type . Meaning that "Human" here means everything named human . And saying "Him" doesn't contradicts a thing except for those who see contradictions in any and everything just for the sake of showing off .
Adam is humans, Adam was proportioned as well. And Adam was proportioned AFTER sexual reproduction as well. Still proves my point on evolution.
Next, you say that language skills is a problem, I am using a word-for-word multiple translator site that is very authoritative. No longer will that argument of yours have any place.
Alright , I'll explain again for reminding benefits the believers . The verse says Allah perfected what he created . You want to force the meaning that it MUST mean evolving things after creating them . But ones who know a few things about Arabic OR English know that it isn't necessary . Even when I was a kid of 8 years old and used to read this sign , I used to think "It means that God created the creatures perfectly" and no idea of evolution ever hit someone I know . THEN - and you think writing in capital makes a difference - Allah says that he started creating human out of mud . Here , there are two possible meanings for the word "Human" . The first is that it means Adam - peace upon him - and in that case evolution has no room . God started forming father Adam out of mud , and the story is mentioned in Hadith which you despise so much because you don't know the first thing about it . The other meaning is that "Human" is a "Type noun" which means all mankind . In this case , the beginning of creating man means the first one being Adam peace upon him . Now , when we move to the next sign it says that Allah - after starting forming human out of mud - made his lineage نسل made of water that is sperm . Meaning that God made human reproduce through sexual intercourse . Let's take both meanings again . If the human here is meant to be father Adam then it means that God made his lineage made of sperm which is true with father Adam and mother Eve both AND their children after them . If I take the other meaning , it's also correct because the lineage of mankind - after the first stage of the first man made of mud - is made of sperm . Let's move to the next . It says that Allah blew of his created soul into this human and gave him sight and hearing and hearts . Let's take both meanings again . If we take the meaning that it's the entire human race , it means the formation of the child in the womb as I said . If it means father Adam then it means the same . Done . No evolution .
Adam would be the first human to carry the final mutation to make him look like us. All of the other human mutations at that time had to somehow die or get hidden. So he does have a place in evolution.
Evolution
perfects creation. No contradiction here.
Yes, we all already knew that human means mankind collectively. You just fail to connect the dot that that means ADAM too.
So yes, Adam's lineage was made from semen. No contradiction with evolution here. The support of evolution comes after when it says that AFTER our ability to make a reproductive liquid, we were ALL proportioend and given consciousness (including Adam, other verses say Adam was proportioned and given consciousness) This verse says that Adam (and consequently you) was proportioned and given consciousnesses AFTER sexual reproduction's formation.
So that means that Adam himself was in a womb! Just as Quran 16:4 describes: "
He created man from a sperm-drop; then at once, he is a clear adversary". If Allah created mankind from a sperm-drop, that means Allah created Adam from a sperm drop because Adam was the first man who is all of our fathers. Just as you agreed above. You see, I am not adding an excuse to any verse, I am stating what it says.
Adam was also created from nutfah. If Adam is the first one to be like us, then it must logically follow that his father or ancestors were not like him. To put in scientific terms, Adam would be the first human mutation (that is like us) that has sexually been isolated from the other human-like people and procreates.
Trying to make me look bad through saying I don't accept science does nothing . What I don't accept is bigoted lies supported by more lies . To put it simply , you'll clutch to any straw left as long as it means evolution is true and I can't see why.
I ask you to reasonably judge what you said and your excuse making to deny the reality, and judge by what I said which is nothing more than a literal interpretation of the Quran and its application to reality. No excuses made. If the Quran declares all of mankind from being created from Alaq, then we ALL are created from Alaq. If the Quran declares Adam as a descendant and offspring of something, then he IS. No excuses made. Allah is never short of words.
If I hear more abusing of the word "Science" I'll lose it . I keep telling you that science keeps stepping on the remains of this myth day after another but it seems I'm talking to myself
Personally, I don't think you will ever understand what science is unless you study it. I'm not going to put this one against you.
Not related . I said it before , we have the sayings of the prophet peace upon him and they are more than enough for every Muslim who respects Islam
If you want to believe the Chinese whispers over the Quran, its your choice. Allah is the judge.
The Quran says this: "And We have revealed the Book to you which has clear explanation of everything, and a guidance, mercy and good news for those who submit." (Qur'an 16:89)
No hadith needed. But of course, the Chinese whispers have authority over the Quran. My advice is to follow the sunnah (even though it may be corrupted) because we can't know if the prophet (pbuh) actually told us to do such.
I SWEAR to God that you're completely ignorant of any and everything in this science . Our last conversation showed it . And you need to understand that seeing something on the internet doesn't make you a scholar . Just because you read an article or two doesn't mean you know about it . And going further on will show yet more ignorance which would make one facepalm .
I don't recall saying that something on the internet makes me a scholar. If a scholar says something, I post it and show you what they said.
I'm telling you that you are ignorant and you still to fallacious beliefs rather than the Quranic truth. If you seek truth, find truth. Not lies and self-deception and excuse making.
If you ever played a game back in grade school, its like the whisper game, the teacher promised everyone a lolipop if we could whisper what she says to the next person in a chain and see if the last whisper is the same as the original teacher's whisper. Although we all wanted that lolipop, we tried to listen carefully and did our best. In the end, the last whisper is so different from the original teacher's whisper even though we all had good intentions. In the last whisper, there is some truth in it, but it concealed much detail, exaggerated soem and students added their own itnerpreations to the whisper. Would it be far fetched to say the same things happened in hadiths? I don't think so.
I would have slapped you for this insolence if you were in front of me . I tell you about a science which scholars spend years learning and gathering and you think making a farce of this joke deems it invalid ?!
Does the fact that scholars spent years gathering hadiths in any way tell you that they are uncorrupted? No. Do you know how they judge hadiths as to whether they are authentic or not? If the speakers had good Character.
My uncle told me that his friend said that his friend said that his cousin said that his great grandfather said that his uncle said that the prophet said...
Sorry bro, not something a logical person can accept.
Why not ? You're so sure of it that you call denying it an embarrassment to Islam . The truth is , you were forced to study this in school and so you don't dare question it as if it was a gospel . I told you to drop by here :
www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php
so that I show you and you still made no comment . Truthful is the one who said that Darwinism is a new religion with a doctrine
Give me a specific argument, please. Evolution is fact and you need to be very well-understanding of it. There is a reason why nearly all scientists accept it. Its not based on blind belief, like hadith.
Uh-huh . And I'M the one being rude and offensive ? And twisting the meanings to suit my desire ? What desire ? The desire that we were created already perfectly and there was no need for a goddamned myth as evolution ?
The desire to make sure evolution is not in the Quran.... And yes you are twisting clear verses.
We were created through Allah perfecting us. That says that we were once imperfect and made perfect.
Because you show serious lack of knowledge about Arabic AND English AND logic ! You have something with multiple meanings , and another one saying that the true meaning is only one . Logically , you'd go with that one meaning because there is no room for doubt anymore . But you want to force the idea that the other WRONG meaning is the right one .
Between you and me , I KNOW your type . We see ones like that every now and then . They read a few articles on internet and thought they can judge the ones who spent their whole lives learning or even say the companions of the prophet are hypocrites . Abandon the idea that you're the genius who discovered what others couldn't all these centuries.
Personal attacks will yet again be ignored. I don't attack you, so its common courtesy not to attack me. Disprove my points rather than attack me.
I am interpreting verses my the WRONG way? Or am I using multiple sources and a word for word translation made by scholars.
http://corpus.quran.com/You have a verse with multiple meanings, and you have to judge what the probability is that verse is talking about. For example:
The computer has a hard-drive could be interpreted as the computer has a hard-drive to do work, or that the computer has a physical substance called a hard-drive. Which one is more probable?
Because it's mentioned in this sign o headache bringer !! For the thousand time , if you know nothing about language then it's your problem . No book of explanation says a thing about this doctrine called "Evolution" . And I as a simple commoner can give a more rational explanation which is that we were made to grow out of the soil of Earth as said before . The problem is with the ones who make this myth a religion to follow . And if you look at the meaning of "إنبات" here :
http://www.almaany.com/quran/26/7/6/
it says that it is making something grow out of Earth or by making something out of this Earth . And even in the worst case scenario , if we take it as literally meaning that we grew out of ground then it is a metaphor because we have other crystal clear evidence that it isn't .
Nonetheless, The word does not mean plants, but growth like plants. There is a reason it wasn't translated as plants. Regardless if it is a metaphor or not, we grew out of the Earth a GRADUAL growth. Not instantly created in paradise and put on Earth. So many excuses, brother, STOP. No need for excuses, the verse says we grew out of the Earth. That means were were a part of Earth. And some linguistics believe it means a gradual growth. That's it. Compare this idea to evolution vs. your creationism. What makes more sense?
Secondly you made a circular reasoning fallacy that atheists make. The Quran cannot support science or evolution because it is an old book not from God. Then they say the Quran is not from God because it is an old book that doesn't support evolution. Don't sink to their level. Of course the Quran was't interpreted to support evolution back then, although there are many possible interpretations, they would use the ones they actually think is right. That is the miracle of the Quran .Supports all beliefs at all times.
After all this displaying of ignorance of Quran , Hadith , language , and logic , you're not one to accuse others of changing the meanings of something
After all this displaying of excuse making, personal attacks and refusing to address why I say you are changing the meanings of verses--I have to make the conclusion that you know that you are making excuses to support your old-age factually incorrect beliefs.
Be skeptical as much as you like when you're buying tomatoes . We're here talking about a whole science . Someone with absolutely no knowledge of it is the last to criticize it . You want me to see all this evidence you talk about . You want me to "Learn" . And now you think a rotten article on internet makes you able to take or let whatever you want of Islam ?
There is more ground on evolution than Hadiths. Don't commit the appeal to authority fallacy. I do not claim nor did I ever claim to have full knowledge of anything, that does not disprove my points.
What article are you talking about? Why do you assume my beliefs are based off of one article? My beleifs are based off of a rational judgement of reality.
If any of you can seriously show me that Evolution is not a Quranic concept, then you win. Simple as that. Its a simple challenge that no one succeeded to. When you have verses that show:
1.) Creation had a process of perfection
2.) We grew from the Earth
3.) Mankind came from the descendants of another people
4.) All of mankind was created from an Embryo
5.) Adam was an offspring of something
6.) Creation from basic earth compounds gradually turning into more advanced forms (sexual reproduction) and gets even more advanced to achieve consciousness
7.) We were created into stages
8.)Every animal is created out of water
9.) Allah BEGINS creation
10.) Mankind was a successor to Earth
11.) Allah will substitute us with a creation by a change of form (76:28)
12.) Jesus and Adam were created in the same manner! (Jesus was born in a womb)
13.) All of mankind was created from a sperm drop.
VERY compelling verses...
Fantasy my foot ! An insult to me is something I can tolerate , but insulting the companions and entire nations is unforgivable !
Where did I insult you or the companions. We must make it clear when I insult someone's beliefs, I am not insulting them, but their beliefs.
Fantasy your foot? So you believe the Earth is flat, The sun travels around the Earth, the stars are literally in the sky, there are 7 glass domes above us, drinking animal urine will cure you, creation was a magical instant etc.?
None of those are Quranic concepts. The Quran does allude to those concepts, but it does so so it doesn't contradict our beleifs as well.
You completely disregarded my argument that the Quran supports 7th century belief WITHOUT contradicting and supporting our beliefs. .
The verse is talking about those whose hearts are astray . And if we compare between those who lived right after the prophet and some nobody who sticks his nose in whatever he thinks he can , well , you'd be the one astray.
Yes, and the verse also is talking about how verses in the Quran are not meant to be understood by everyone, even the companions themselves. This further alludes to my point. Secondly, am I the one astray who is not making excuses about Quranic verses and reading them as they are? I don't think so. I don't make excuses, the verses speak for themselves.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wanted to add one more verse to you directory of information. Take a look at this:
Quran 35:11 And Allah did create you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairsReally judge this verse, it has a VERY important meaning.
Allah created us from dust (something simple and lifeless)
THEN from a sperm drop
THEN made you in pairs. You believe that Allah made us in pairs BEFORE sexual reproduction. You believe that Allah created Adam and Eve (a pair) and then we came from their nutfah--you used this to deny how verse 32:7-9 is in support of evolution. But this verse here just killed your belief and your refutation to 32:7-9. AFTER the creation of nutfah, we were made in pairs, not before. So that means that Adam and eve (a pair/mates) were created from/after nutfah. Ultimately, Adam and eve were created from and after the creation of nutfah. And whoever their parents are, if Adam and eve were the first humans to take on our form, then their parents are not like them or us.
Time to wake up, brother. Be honest with me, be honest with yourself, be honest with Allah. The Quran is clear as day!
May Allah (the most ingenious creator and evolver) guide us all to truth.
