Question

[Black Muslim]

It still means nothing . Having doubts doesn't prove them by default
http://articles.islamweb.net/media/index.php?page=article&lang=A&id=64510

[ThatMuslimGuy]

Assalamualykum.


 Brother Osama, how are you? May it's my last conversation with you for this month. Because I'm going out somewhere next week.

Brother one question,

 Why Muslims conspired against themselves?

 And when these hadiths were inserted why didn't anyone oppose?

 And, aren't the present copies of Sahih Hadiths same as the original manuscripts? or there's a problem with the original copies? If there is then didn't the hadith writers like Bukhari realize that these hadiths are fabricated?

May Allah shower His unending blessings upon you, your family and the entire Muslim Ummah.

It could have easily been non-muslims who wanted to degrade Muhammad and actually deluded people into thinking Muhammad did that.

For example:

Book 007, Hadith Number 2380. (Abu dawud)
►Narated By 'Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin : The Prophet (pbuh) used to kiss her and suck her tongue when he was fasting.


^Are you kidding me! Clearly the fabricator wanted to make the prophet look bad! Even if he did that, why talk about it??

AsalamuAlaikum,

That Hadith you posted is a daif (Weak) Hadith. Shaikh Al-Albani graded it daif.

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:

The Prophet (SAW) used to kiss her and suck her tongue when he was fasting.

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عِيسَى، حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ دِينَارٍ، حَدَّثَنَا سَعْدُ بْنُ أَوْسٍ الْعَبْدِيُّ، عَنْ مِصْدَعٍ أَبِي يَحْيَى، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَانَ يُقَبِّلُهَا وَهُوَ صَائِمٌ وَيَمُصُّ لِسَانَهَا ‏.‏

Grade   : Da'if (Al-Albani)     ضعيف   (الألباني)   حكم     :

Reference    : Sunan Abi Dawud 2386
In-book reference    : Book 14, Hadith 74
English translation    : Book 13, Hadith 2380

Read here: http://www.sunnah.com/abudawud/14/74

There are authentic Hadith that do mention Kissing but no 'sucking':

Narrated Hisham's father:
Aisha said, "Allah's Messenger (SAW) used to kiss some of his wives while he was fasting," and then she smiled.

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى، عَنْ هِشَامٍ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي أَبِي، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ح وَحَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مَسْلَمَةَ، عَنْ مَالِكٍ، عَنْ هِشَامٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ قَالَتْ إِنْ كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم لَيُقَبِّلُ بَعْضَ أَزْوَاجِهِ وَهُوَ صَائِمٌ‏.‏ ثُمَّ ضَحِكَتْ‏.‏

Reference    : Sahih al-Bukhari 1928
In-book reference    : Book 30, Hadith 36
USC-MSA web (English) reference    : Vol. 3, Book 31, Hadith 150
  (deprecated)

Read here: http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/30/36

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that the Messenger of Allah (SAW) used to kiss her during the month of fasting.

حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ يَحْيَى، وَقُتَيْبَةُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ، وَأَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ قَالَ يَحْيَى أَخْبَرَنَا وَقَالَ الآخَرَانِ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الأَحْوَصِ، عَنْ زِيَادِ بْنِ عِلاَقَةَ، عَنْ عَمْرِو بْنِ مَيْمُونٍ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، - رضى الله عنها - قَالَتْ كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يُقَبِّلُ فِي شَهْرِ الصَّوْمِ ‏.‏

Reference    : Sahih Muslim 1106 k
In-book reference    : Book 13, Hadith 89
USC-MSA web (English) reference    : Book 6, Hadith 2445
  (deprecated)

Read here: http://www.sunnah.com/muslim/13/89

[mclinkin94]

Assalamualykum.


 Brother Osama, how are you? May it's my last conversation with you for this month. Because I'm going out somewhere next week.

Brother one question,

 Why Muslims conspired against themselves?

 And when these hadiths were inserted why didn't anyone oppose?

 And, aren't the present copies of Sahih Hadiths same as the original manuscripts? or there's a problem with the original copies? If there is then didn't the hadith writers like Bukhari realize that these hadiths are fabricated?

May Allah shower His unending blessings upon you, your family and the entire Muslim Ummah.

It could have easily been non-muslims who wanted to degrade Muhammad and actually deluded people into thinking Muhammad did that.

For example:

Book 007, Hadith Number 2380. (Abu dawud)
►Narated By 'Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin : The Prophet (pbuh) used to kiss her and suck her tongue when he was fasting.


^Are you kidding me! Clearly the fabricator wanted to make the prophet look bad! Even if he did that, why talk about it??

AsalamuAlaikum,

That Hadith you posted is a daif (Weak) Hadith. Shaikh Al-Albani graded it daif.

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:

The Prophet (SAW) used to kiss her and suck her tongue when he was fasting.

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عِيسَى، حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ دِينَارٍ، حَدَّثَنَا سَعْدُ بْنُ أَوْسٍ الْعَبْدِيُّ، عَنْ مِصْدَعٍ أَبِي يَحْيَى، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَانَ يُقَبِّلُهَا وَهُوَ صَائِمٌ وَيَمُصُّ لِسَانَهَا ‏.‏

Grade   : Da'if (Al-Albani)     ضعيف   (الألباني)   حكم     :

Reference    : Sunan Abi Dawud 2386
In-book reference    : Book 14, Hadith 74
English translation    : Book 13, Hadith 2380

Read here: http://www.sunnah.com/abudawud/14/74

There are authentic Hadith that do mention Kissing but no 'sucking':

Narrated Hisham's father:
Aisha said, "Allah's Messenger (SAW) used to kiss some of his wives while he was fasting," and then she smiled.

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى، عَنْ هِشَامٍ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي أَبِي، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ح وَحَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مَسْلَمَةَ، عَنْ مَالِكٍ، عَنْ هِشَامٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ قَالَتْ إِنْ كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم لَيُقَبِّلُ بَعْضَ أَزْوَاجِهِ وَهُوَ صَائِمٌ‏.‏ ثُمَّ ضَحِكَتْ‏.‏

Reference    : Sahih al-Bukhari 1928
In-book reference    : Book 30, Hadith 36
USC-MSA web (English) reference    : Vol. 3, Book 31, Hadith 150
  (deprecated)

Read here: http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/30/36

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that the Messenger of Allah (SAW) used to kiss her during the month of fasting.

حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ يَحْيَى، وَقُتَيْبَةُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ، وَأَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ قَالَ يَحْيَى أَخْبَرَنَا وَقَالَ الآخَرَانِ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الأَحْوَصِ، عَنْ زِيَادِ بْنِ عِلاَقَةَ، عَنْ عَمْرِو بْنِ مَيْمُونٍ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، - رضى الله عنها - قَالَتْ كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يُقَبِّلُ فِي شَهْرِ الصَّوْمِ ‏.‏

Reference    : Sahih Muslim 1106 k
In-book reference    : Book 13, Hadith 89
USC-MSA web (English) reference    : Book 6, Hadith 2445
  (deprecated)

Read here: http://www.sunnah.com/muslim/13/89

Yes, brother I am aware! But my point is that there were people who fabricated/overexaggerated hadiths and made them make the prophet look bad. Hadiths had no divine promise of being preserved. And what is amazing is that the Quran does not have the nonsense in many non-authentic and sometimes hadiths we call authentic. That should tell you a lot about the authors of the 2 books.

You have many people who don't respect our beloved prophet because of those hadiths.

[Ishfaq]

Brother Osama, you're alive!

As'salamu Alaikum my Beloveds,

I am very sorry for taking a long time out of the board.  I've been busy focusing and concentrating on my big projects, which I've mentioned a long time ago on this board and on the website.  Even the website's updates I haven't been keeping up with them.  I am planning on finishing a lot of things by the end of this year, insha'Allah .  Please forgive me for neglecting you.  I hope you're all well and happy and your faiths are stronger than ever, insha'Allah.  The same for your familes, insha'Allah .

Brother, Thanks but why didn't the Early Muslims delete those hadiths. And, I heard there are some a manuscript of Sahih Bukhari. So, the problem is in the original manuscript or the present copies? And if the problem is with the original manuscripts then why couldn't Bukhari realize it?

I believe because of lack of technology and also lack of knowledge about these Hadiths, dear brother.  Muslims till this very day of ours still don't read much of the Hadiths.  They sort of learn them by the word of mouth from others.  Only the specialized Scholars know the Hadiths in de
    1. There were some injunctions from Allah Almighty which were cancelled {mansukh} and they are not a part of the quran. It is not wise to say that these are not sound ahadith. You should thoroughly read the matter. The verses which the goat ate are also cancelled(see Muta MALIK). So the are not a part of the quran, just as the Hadith qudsi is the word of allah but not a part of the quran.
2. "Umar said  that were it not that people will say that umar changed the quran , i would have inserted a verse on rajam in the quran so that people would not  say that we do not find the verse of rajm in the quran. The prophet did rajm .'( muta malik). Umar is not saying that there was a verse in the quran actually, but it was in the tradition. Just as the quran is obligatory for us to follow , so is the sunnah. (a  ) the prophet said "one among you is in the pride that nothing other than the things that are haram in the quran is haram? By Allah, whatever i say to you and whatever i permit and prohibit to you , that is also like the quran or more than it. "(al jehad fil isjam, p. 196). (b) allah says in the quran" take whatever the prophet gives you and refrain from whatever he withholds you from." (c) allah also says' obey Allah, obey the messenger of allah and those of in authority. Then he there is discord among you, turn the matter to allah and his messenger." (d) the Prophet says that gabriel brings not only the quran to me but also the sunnah(darimi)." (e) the prophet said " i have been given the quran and a thing similar to it( meaning the ahadith)(musnad ahmad 4/131). (f) at many places in the quran allah says that " we have bestowed the prophet with quran and hikmah" the tafsir or hikmah is hadith. (f) with respect to the verse 3:110, the prophet says "in it good refers to quran and hadith obedience. " ( ibn kathir ).
3. Regarding bewitchment: (a) the prophet said' one who is not worthy of tafsir ; if he does correct tafsir, still he has done wrong. '     (b) the prophet also said that " one who searches the meaning with his mind of the quran , he should find his place in the hell. " this does not mean mind is not to be used but it means that it is to be used after quran, ahadith, consensus of the companions and the successors have been refereed to understand the verse. Thereafter the mind is to be applied. This is also proved in another hadith where maz bin jabal was sent by the prophet to yemen and he said i will rule by the quran , the hadith and if i dont get answer from there i will use my mind. The prophet had affirmed this. (b) in the verses where prophet is alleged to be bewitched by the jews, the background is that when the prophet used to recite the quran to them, they used to reject it saying he is possessed or bewitched. Thereupon Allah falsified their claim that the prophet is not saying out of possession or bewitchment but it is a revelation sent down to him(quran). " he does not say any thing of his desire but it is an inspiration sent down to him (perhaps surah yusuf). Allah never refuted the truth of bewitchment but He refuted only the non-muslims claims that the prophet was saying the quran out of possession. In fact the truth of bewitchment is hinted at in the surah falaq (4:113). And in many ahadith . And we witness magic in our everyday life.       

[Black Muslim]

 To simply answer your question , it's abrogation . And if a Christian dares and object then ask him about abrogation of the entire old testament by Paul .

[abdullah]

Assalamualykum, I don't understand what the point behind defending the goat Hadith is. The Hadith makes no sense what's so ever. I'm all for defending the ahadith but when a Hadith doesn't make sense than whats the point of defending it. The goat Hadith makes no sense because are u telling me that the only copy of the ayat was on a piece of paper and the rest of the companions didn't bother to memorize it. I would like to clarify my views on ahadith. I believe all ahadith with strong chains unless
1. The Hadith contradicts the Quran
2. The Hadith contradicts established scientific facts, not theories but facts.
3. The Hadith goes against the Sunnah
4. The Hadith makes absolutely no sense (not hadiths I don't like but hadiths that sound next to impossible)
Also I don't reject the Hadith until all attempts at reconciliation between the Quran, Sunnah, and Science.
Also I think it is completely foolish and childish to reject all the ahadith all together. To claim that Bukhari, Muslim , etc ( May Allah's blessings be upon them) forged all of those ahadith which the Muslim consensus at the time and now considered the most authentic collections is one of the most irrational things I have ever heard in my life.

[Black Muslim]

Assalamualykum, I don't understand what the point behind defending the goat Hadith is. The Hadith makes no sense what's so ever. I'm all for defending the ahadith but when a Hadith doesn't make sense than whats the point of defending it. The goat Hadith makes no sense because are u telling me that the only copy of the ayat was on a piece of paper and the rest of the companions didn't bother to memorize it.

Actually , you're mistaken here . The FIRST way of keeping Quran was memorizing it .The companions - Allah be pleased of them - did memorize Quran . And that's how they decided to gather it so there is no danger of it being lost . There is absolutely no problem in that . Allah was the one to guide them into doing this . As for this hadith , it is unauthorized and so it cannot be taken . And let's assume that it is , what's the problem ? If a goat ate a piece of paper that had verses in them so what ? Does it mean nobody memorized them ?

I believe all ahadith with strong chains unless
1. The Hadith contradicts the Quran
2. The Hadith contradicts established scientific facts, not theories but facts.
3. The Hadith goes against the Sunnah
4. The Hadith makes absolutely no sense (not hadiths I don't like but hadiths that sound next to impossible)

Here is an information , I never heard of any Hadith that contradicts Quran or logic without a possibility to explain it except weak Hadith . Yes , it is in the science of Hadith that if there is no way to explain it logically then it is not taken . But before that , no authorized one does .

[abdullah]

assalamualykum

Assalamualykum, I don't understand what the point behind defending the goat Hadith is. The Hadith makes no sense what's so ever. I'm all for defending the ahadith but when a Hadith doesn't make sense than whats the point of defending it. The goat Hadith makes no sense because are u telling me that the only copy of the ayat was on a piece of paper and the rest of the companions didn't bother to memorize it.

Actually , you're mistaken here . The FIRST way of keeping Quran was memorizing it .The companions - Allah be pleased of them - did memorize Quran . And that's how they decided to gather it so there is no danger of it being lost . There is absolutely no problem in that . Allah was the one to guide them into doing this . As for this hadith , it is unauthorized and so it cannot be taken . And let's assume that it is , what's the problem ? If a goat ate a piece of paper that had verses in them so what ? Does it mean nobody memorized them ?

Bro thats my point how can that hadith be true if it says that we lost two verses from the Glorious Qur'an because a goat ate a piece of paper with the ayat on them. Surely all of the hufath memorized every single ayah of the Qur'an.

Here is an information , I never heard of any Hadith that contradicts Quran or logic without a possibility to explain it except weak Hadith . Yes , it is in the science of Hadith that if there is no way to explain it logically then it is not taken . But before that , no authorized one does .

Thank you for the information, I wrote that just incase i ever came across ahadith that contradicted the Qur'an.
I would also like to add another point, I don't believe any hadith that says ayat were removed from the Qur'an

[Black Muslim]

I would also like to add another point, I don't believe any hadith that says ayat were removed from the Qur'an

So you don't believe in abrogation ?
87:6 We will make you recite, [O Muhammad], and you will not forget, 87:7 Except what Allah should will. Indeed, He knows what is declared and what is hidden.

[Ishfaq]

There are scores of cancelled verses in the quran.
a hadith with a sound chain and if it is ghareeb[with only one chain] can be rejected if ...1. it is against the quran2.against a famous sunah.3. against consensus of the companions and successors .4. against 5. against other sound ahadith. ][hadith and understanding of hadith by abdulah marufi]. but this is the job of muhadisun, not laymen likee u.s. if a hadith..with a sound chain ....is shaz, it iS NOT A PROOF . SEE TIRMIZI . IF A HADITH IS MALUL, DESPITE A SOUND CHAIN .. YOU CANNOT FOLLOW IT. BUT REMEMBER DO NOT REJECT OUTRIGHT ANY HADITH WHICH YOU THINK IS WRONG. CAN I GET EXAMPLES OF HADITH CONTRADICTING SCIENCE.... I LL EXPOUND ON THIS TOPIC BUT LATER. BY REJECTING HADITH WE ACTUALLY REJECT THE QURAN.   

[abdullah]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=c4-feed-u&v=MN10qU4dP2A
No  rejecting some Hadith does  not equate  to rejecting  the Quran. That is nonsense.

[Ishfaq]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=c4-feed-u&v=MN10qU4dP2A
No  rejecting some Hadith does  not equate  to rejecting  the Quran. That is nonsense.

by saying HADITH. I mean HADITH s other than those I have excepted.

[QuranSearchCom]

As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters,

Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1166.msg4047.html#msg4047

And again, this is why what agrees with the Holy Quran from both the Hadiths and also the Bible and other Scriptures we accept as closest to the Truth, but not absolute Truth like the Holy Quran, and what disagrees with the Holy Quran we reject.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah