Help: Rebuttal needed: Explanation of Quran 4:136

[mclinkin94]

Quran 4:136 says: O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah , His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray.

Christians like to say:

"Why would God force you to believe in a corrupted/altered/false book, especially when the Quran says people have corrupted the bible/torah"

Explanation anyone?

[FARHAN_UDDIN]

ASSALAMUALYKUM.

                  Brother, I think by this verse Allah is asking us to believe that Quran, Injeel, Zabur, Tawrat etc are the revelations of Allah. No human or angel revealed them. So we must have faith on these books also. Yes now, except Quran all other divine books such as Injeel,Zabur,Tawrat etc have  become corrupted. But we have to believe that those are the revelations of Allah. No human has created them or written them. And Allah didn't corrupt them. It is humans who have corrupted them.

 Take care

[mclinkin94]

ASSALAMUALYKUM.

                  Brother, I think by this verse Allah is asking us to believe that Quran, Injeel, Zabur, Tawrat etc are the revelations of Allah. No human or angel revealed them. So we must have faith on these books also. Yes now, except Quran all other divine books such as Injeel,Zabur,Tawrat etc have  become corrupted. But we have to believe that those are the revelations of Allah. No human has created them or written them. And Allah didn't corrupt them. It is humans who have corrupted them.

 Take care

Hey Farhan, I understand what you mean. But that verse is very clear that we have to believe in the Ijeel/Gospel the same way we believe in the Quran.   Right?

Were the Gospel/injeel corrupted during the Quran revelation, or was it perfect at the time?

[Egyptian]

Were the Gospel/injeel corrupted during the Quran revelation, or was it perfect at the time?

according to the Quran ,yes they were already corrupted ,during the Quran revelation ....


Injeel is not typical to the new testament ,according to the Quran:


Injeel ?

1- A revelation was sent to Jesus, as a guidance and light, confirmation yet modifying few items of the Law that had come before him, to make clear to Jews some of the (points) on which they dispute, a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God, verses 5:046,3:50 ,43:63 ...

2 - It HAS TO BE mostly the saying parts of the the synoptic gospels

Holy Quran[007:157] "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Torah and the Injil;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

the Quran though tells that both the books were tampered with(we have exposed that in previous posts),yet most the truth has remained therein .....
the verse is not telling Christians,Jews to go look up a passage (s) in a lost gospel .....

the Injeel is mostly within the new testament .... why mostly? The Quran quotes the Injeel (besides the torah),directly ?

Holy Quran[009:111] God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Torah, the Injil, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God?

Holy Quran [048:029] Muhammad is the apostle of God; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from God and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Injil is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. God has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

Are such promise & proverb to be found in the Old and New Testament?

if they are not there, then the Saying gospel (which is within the New testament) is missing some parts.....

If the following modifications of the Law were parts of the Injeel, and no mention about them in the saying gospel, then we can be assured of missing parts in the saying gospel that are parts of the Injeel .....

Holy Quran 3:50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

Holy Quran 43:63 When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.. that is why I said the Injeel is MOSTLY within the saying gospel ..

[mclinkin94]

Were the Gospel/injeel corrupted during the Quran revelation, or was it perfect at the time?

according to the Quran ,yes they were already corrupted ,during the Quran revelation ....


Injeel is not typical to the new testament ,according to the Quran:


Injeel ?

1- A revelation was sent to Jesus, as a guidance and light, confirmation yet modifying few items of the Law that had come before him, to make clear to Jews some of the (points) on which they dispute, a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God, verses 5:046,3:50 ,43:63 ...

2 - It HAS TO BE mostly the saying parts of the the synoptic gospels

Holy Quran[007:157] "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Torah and the Injil;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

the Quran though tells that both the books were tampered with(we have exposed that in previous posts),yet most the truth has remained therein .....
the verse is not telling Christians,Jews to go look up a passage (s) in a lost gospel .....

the Injeel is mostly within the new testament .... why mostly? The Quran quotes the Injeel (besides the torah),directly ?

Holy Quran[009:111] God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Torah, the Injil, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God?

Holy Quran [048:029] Muhammad is the apostle of God; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from God and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Injil is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. God has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

Are such promise & proverb to be found in the Old and New Testament?

if they are not there, then the Saying gospel (which is within the New testament) is missing some parts.....

If the following modifications of the Law were parts of the Injeel, and no mention about them in the saying gospel, then we can be assured of missing parts in the saying gospel that are parts of the Injeel .....

Holy Quran 3:50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

Holy Quran 43:63 When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.. that is why I said the Injeel is MOSTLY within the saying gospel ..

Yes but if you tell that to a Christian, then they will say that the Quran is contradicting itself because in verse 4:136 it says to believe in the Torah and the Gospel as they were when they were given to muhammad. The Christian would say: "why would God make you believe in a false book if the Quran recognizes those books were corrupted?" Because at one place, the Torah/gospel were corrupted and in another place the Quran says believe IN them.

"O you who have believed, believe in Allah AND His Messenger AND the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger AND the Scripture which He sent down before. AND whoever disbelieves in Allah , His angels, His books, His messengers, AND the Last Day has certainly gone far astray" 4:136

[FARHAN_UDDIN]

ASSALAMUALYKUM,

      Brother, It's the nature of the jews,hindus,,christens,budhists not to accept the truth. That's why they raise meaningless questions. And that's why they are called non-believers. They have failed to realize the signs of ALLAH. Just ask the christens, WHERE THE BIBEL SAYS TO WORSHIP JESUS?


Quran 4:136 says: O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah , His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray.

 Now lets come back to the point. By the above verse, Allah is asking us to believe that Quran and all other divine books such as, Injeel, Tawrat, Zabur etc are the revelations of Allah. Can we deny that? No. Can we say that they are the revelations of the some angels or human beings? No. If we believe that, then we will become Kafirs. Yes, Except Quran every other heveanly book has become corrupted. So we can't except the messages of those books anymore. But, we have to believe no matter what that, they were the revelations of Allah.

 Now these Kafirs finding no other alternatives are trying to misinterpret the verse given above. They can't even understand a single verse. So, how do we expect them to understand all other messages and miracles of the Quran.

 Wish you got the answer brother.

 Still if you have any confusion just raise it. It's better to clear off all the confusions once and for all.
 
Take Care

[mclinkin94]

ASSALAMUALYKUM,

 Still if you have any confusion just raise it. It's better to clear off all the confusions once and for all.
 
Take Care

Yes but that verse tells us to believe in the Torah and Gospel not just acknowledge it is from Allah.

[FARHAN_UDDIN]

brother, wait till brother Osama makes this clear once and for all

[Egyptian]

Yes but if you tell that to a Christian, then they will say that the Quran is contradicting itself

the christian common claim ,is not that the Quran contradicts itself regarding the corruption of the bible ,but they claim that the Quran validates the bible FULLY !!

because in verse 4:136 it says to believe in the Torah and the Gospel as they were when they were given to muhammad. The Christian would say: "why would God make you believe in a false book if the Quran recognizes those books were corrupted?" Because at one place, the Torah/gospel were corrupted and in another place the Quran says believe IN them.

the answer of that question requires explanation to the following:

1- what is meant by the torah and injeel,according to the Quran?

2- are they corrupted? what is the nature of that corruption ? how far is the corruption? before or after Islam?



what is Torah,according to the Quran?


1- A scripture was revealed only to Moses :

the Quran - 2:5 And when We gave unto Moses the Scripture and the criterion (of right and wrong), that ye might be led aright.

the Quran - 6:91 And they do not assign to Allah the attributes due to Him when they say: Allah has not revealed anything to a mortal. Say: Who revealed the Book which Musa brought, a light and a guidance to men.

the Quran - 17:2 And We gave Musa the Book and made it a guidance to the children of Israel, saying: Do not take a protector besides Me.

the Quran - 11:110 We have given Moses the Scripture, yet they disputed in it.

the Quran - 28:43 And We verily gave the Scripture unto Moses after We had destroyed the generations of old: clear testimonies for mankind, and a guidance and a mercy, that haply they might reflect.


for what?


the Quran - 32:23 And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.

It remained a guide for the children of Israel ,after the departure of Moses:

the Quran - 40:53 and We verily gave Moses the guidance, and We caused the Children of Israel to inherit the Scripture

the Quran - 42:14 And they did not become divided until after knowledge had come to them out of envy among themselves; and had not a word gone forth from your Lord till an appointed term, certainly judgment would have been given between them; and those who were made to inherit the Book after them are most surely in disquieting doubt concerning it.


Even the prophets after Moses,the Rabbis, and the Priests would judge with it ...they weren't supposed to add new scripture to the corpus of the Torah...

the Quran - 5:44 We have sent down the Torah, in it is guidance and a light; the prophets who have surrendered judged with it for those who are Jews, as well as the Rabbis, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of God's Scripture, and they were witness over. So do not fear the people but fear Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.


The Quran gets 2 cases of a scripture after Moses ?

1- Zabur (some of the psalms):

The holy Quran 17:55 We gave to David (the gift of) the Psalms.

the Quran - 21:105 Before this We wrote in the Psalms, after the Message (given to Moses): My servants the righteous, shall inherit the earth."

that verse is really there in the psalms ; Psalms 37:29 "The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever,"

To note ,the psalm was revealed as words of wisdom ,not a law as the Torah.......

2- Injeel (the saying parts of the 4 gospels):

the Quran - 3:48 And He teaches him(jesus) the Scripture and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Injeel.

Again ,the gospel was intended as words of wisdom and ,again, not a law as the Torah ,yet would modify some hard laws.


In a word ,what is the word (scripture) in the Quran could refer to,while refering to an existing written work?
It is some of the contents of : Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, ,Deuteronomy,Psalms,gospel
and fully to the content of :The Quran ...

what about the other books eg; Judges ,jonah Ruth ,Micah,First Samuel ,Ecclesiastes ,Nahum ,Song of Solomon,Isaiah , Jeremiah and Ezekiel...etc.....?

well ,They could have true traditions (beside false ones) ,but they would never be called scripture .......

[Egyptian]

in previous post I defined what the quran means by Injeel

to add ...

looking for lost Injeel?

If you keep searching for it ,well ... the Quan tells you it has to be mostly within the New Testament .............

It has to be mostly the saying gospel (call it Q or whatever you like ) that is within the new testament ..... if there is something missed from it ,the Quran has already mentioned it (proverbs and what laws been modified)...in other words there is no Injeel secrets that is hidden from you ..... the Injeel is already available within the new testament and the Quran.......
the Quranic definition to Injeel won't exclude any discovered saying gospel ,in condition to be the same ideas of the Saying gospel within the new testament ....

[Egyptian]

If the the new testment ,according to the quran ,is not typical to the original injeel revealed to jesus ,then why the quran calls the new testament with Injeel?

the answer is simple, we still call Cairo with the same name it had when it was more beautiful ,having no ugly areas as those areas that is has nowadays...

the modern ugly areas that are added to the original Cairo , hadn't have made people call it with other name than its original name .......

the same way could be applied to the old and new testament ...thouge partly corrupted , still can be fairly called ,Torah and Injeel.

[Egyptian]

Are the old and new testament corrupted? and what is the nature of that corruption ?is it tahreef -Lafthi ( adding,omitting, substituting words ) or false Interpretations or both?


the bible(both old and new testaments) ,according to the Quran, is partially corrupted:

we can get such fact through both direct accusation and inference :

1- Any time the Quran mentions something biblical yet contradicts,denies it ,then we can safely infer that the Quran accuses the bible indirectly to be tampered with ...

Jesus was crucified ,according to the bible yet wasn't crucified ,according to the Quran etc.... a huge list of such disagreements between both the books showing the Quran affirms a biblical corruption....

Is there a rational person who would believe that Mohamed believed that Jesus wasn't crucified ,and believed that the new testament is FULLY the word of God ?!!!!


2- Though I think the previous inference should be, and alone, a proof of a Quranic accusation of biblical tampering,yet the Quran talks even directly and accuses the human tampering with the word of God in several ways:


1- attacking the false claims of inspiration:

Holy Quran :

6:21 Who doth more wrong than he who inventeth a lie against God.

6:93 Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against God, or saith, "I have received inspiration," when he hath received none.

[003:078] Among them(the Jews) are those who twist their tongues to imitate the scripture, that you may think it is from the scripture, when it is not from the scripture, and they claim that it is from GOD, when it is not from GOD. Thus, they utter lies and attribute them to GOD, knowingly.

[002:079] Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

In that category we can include Paul who claimed to be inspired 1 Thessalonians 2:13when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men

also the writer of 2 Peter 1:21...

not only with the bible ,the verse could be applied safely with any human being who falsely claimed to be inspired ..

eg; The mormon founder ,the Qadiany sect and their founder who claimed in his book to be receiving inspiration,also the radical Sufi sects and their claims of divine inspiration ...... etc etc etc..


2- Attacking the textual corruption ( adding,omitting, substituting words ) :


[002:075] Do you ( believers) covet that they will believe in your religion inspite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish religious figures) used to hear the Word of Allah (the Taurat), then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it .

the previous verse could be applied to the textual corruption and the interpretation(comes later) as well..

[004:046] Of the Jews there are some who pervert words from their times and places; and say, we have heard, and have disobeyed.


but the Jews referred to are those Jews living the time of Muhammad or ?

[005:013] But because of their breach of their covenant(the Jews before Islam), We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for God loveth those who are kind.


3- attacking false interpretations:

What is that, changing the words from their right times and places? it is to misquote, misinterpret, twist, distort, pervert, misapply , and concoct an existing text..

it is the third category of corruption after 1-providing a text from nowhere divine ,2-altering,adding,omitting the text
...................................................................


TO BE CONCLUDED NEXT POST..

[mclinkin94]

Thank you very much for your post. I can't wait until you finish it 

[Egyptian]

You are welcome mclinkin94 and thanks giving time for reading .....

Hear or read?

Holy Quran 2:74 Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this).


the verse 2:74 tells the readers that the Jews heared the word of God ,not they read the word of God ,it doesn't suggest them reading a text then making a textual corruption,but it could denote those Jews had heard the torah (could be from the prophets' mouths) then though they understood it ,they corrupted it ,and penned that as a true scripture...


let's visit the second verse related :

Holy Quran [003:078] And there is a sect of them twist their tongues with the Book, that you may suppose it part of the Book, yet it is not part of the Book; and they say, 'It is from God,' yet it is not from God, and they speak falsehood against God, and that wittingly.

2 suggested meanings

1- some of the Jews used to utter some passages in a way that they twist their tongues in order to change the pronunciation to convey another meaning non intended by the text , deceiving the listeners (who never read the scriptures) ,thinking that what they uttered is real scripture from God ...

2- another understanding by Imam Mohamed Metwally Al Shaarawy in his tafsir:

the word (laye) means (twist) when we make rope we braid the fibres together to improve strength....
the same way the jews twisted,braided their tongues with words they claim to be from God,in order to gain strength in their position with the listeners...


Our next verse is:

Holy Quran 4: 46 Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say: "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.


what does it mean by displace words from their (right) places?


let's imagine some wicked greedy imperial powers planning to invade utilize a rich country that is ruled by a great leader .... such leader is the obstacle for their evil palns ,hence they prepared a plan to displace him from his position in the realm of leaders ,afterwards they will either

1- put instead of him to rule the country,another corrupted ruler

or to

2- after abducting him they execute him ,letting no trace of him.

or to

3- force him to do some dirty work,he is not supposed to do ,as a spy etc


this exact example is the one we should apply to the verse to understand the exact meaning

the phrase mentioned in the verse يحرفون الكلم عن مواضعه  means literally to displace,abduct a word(words) from its position in the verse(s) ,passage(s).....

they abduct the words from their place in the chapter, why? it is the same reason the imperialists abducted the great leader,just cause they don't desire it ... it is an obstacle to their agenda...

so they either abduct the word putting another word instead ...or to delete the word making it disappear, or to take the word out of context ,infusing it in another writing misapplying its original meaning intended.....


the next verse is :


Holy Quran 2:49 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.


That verse refers to the Jews (just read the context from verse 47)  and is a direct,clear reference to the worst type of corruption (to write a text using your human ideas,yet claiming to be inspiration)......


Why the Quranic focus on the Jews when accuses directly of biblical corruption ,why not using the word (Christians)?

the answer, cause the New testament is a Jewish production, it was composed by Jews .....
if both the old and new testaments are Jewish production then ,it is understood why the Quranic accusation of a Jewish biblical tampering.


The corruption before or after Islam?


Sura 2:74 Then your hearts hardened after that, so that they were like rocks, rather worse in hardness; and surely there are some rocks from which streams burst forth, and surely there are some of them which split asunder so water issues out of them, and surely there are some of them which fall down for fear of Allah, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do. 75 Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this).

the context before the verse is the story of the Jews and God's bless on them which they didn't appreciate ,continued to misbehave and their hearts hardened and were like rocks !!
immediately after such description of the nature of the Jews ,God would tell the believers don't get high expectations from the Jews you know who share the same nature of their forefathers who had hard hearts used to corrupt the word of God.....

another verse with the same idea .... their hearts are hard as rock ,corrupting the word of God

Holy Quran 005.012 : Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my messengers, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude."But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

have you any doubt that the Quran views the Jews before Islam as corrupting the word of God?

still anyone after reading the previous verse,claims that the criticism is levelled specifically towards the jews living the time of Mohamed peace be upon him ?


Would the pious,religious Jews corrupt the word of God?

yes, that is the human nature...before Judaism we have clues that religious people from different times and places forged for the sake of God, even in Islam some religious persons forged Hadiths !!....no wonder man would always lie for his vain desires...


Why would the religious, lie,corrupt the word of God?

A- To gain religious statue which mostly leads to materialistic benefit.... ,some forgers had good intentions of a religious reform ,so they were seduced to put the divine signature under their theories to attract the masses and get them taking the ideas of reform seriously ...

the group of the dead sea scrolls ,and some of the writers of the NT could be included in such category ,they weren't conspirators (with the literal meaning of the word) to Judaism but they tried to reform it (the way they thought to be effective)..... ,in other words they believed that the END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS.

B- In order to gain dominance, they forged supporting documents under the names of earlier authorities,altering the words of the sacred text, to make them more patently orthodox and to prevent their misuse by Christians who espoused aberrant views.

That last motive is exposed in details in the book, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture: The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament.Bart D. Ehrman



would early Christians die for a lie?

no wonder ,as long as ,from a christian point of view, Muslims are dying for a lie too...
Nazists died for a lie .. etc etc etc....

propaganda would turn the biggest lie to the sweetest truth which you would kill and die for...


in sum and substance


The Quran described The Jews as used to corrupt the word of God by all possible means

adding, deleting passages,misapplying passages by false interpretations, they even ,twist their tongues with falsehoods trying to sell them as scripture,writing a text claiming it to be from God

[mclinkin94]

The Quran described The Jews as used to corrupt the word of God by all possible means

adding, deleting passages,misapplying passages by false interpretations, they even ,twist their tongues with falsehoods trying to sell them as scripture,writing a text claiming it to be from God

Thank you for showing how the Quran says the Torah/Bible are corrupted. But it still raises a question to the Christian that thinks this verse is a contradiction. And that question is "why would Allah make you believe in something that he recognized is corrupted, isn't this a contradiction in the Quran?"