A religion that has man making the first move is doomed to fail how can a finite mind even begin comprehending and infinite mind. Again how can sinful men even understand perfection. God is something that is too great for us to even begin to understand. He has to make the first move and all subsequent moves because we are far to limited and broken to even understand the smallest things about God.
My point here is not Who God is but What is necessary in order for men to understand God. The point I am driving home here is that God is required by His great nature to make the first move in revealing Himself to mankind. It is a response to submit who says keeping of Laws revealed to prophets is How we get to know God. I further argue that a prophet is not sufficient enough for a man to understand God because all men are in the same position finite and sinners. If this is not what you believe let me know.
I told you so many times laws cannot bring you closer to |God because they reveal to you that you have broken them.
Am I getting it wrong or do you want Allah to let us live without any rules and laws guiding us ? You know , so that there's a difference between us and animals ?!
I am trying to convey the message that is inherently taught in the giving of Laws. A law is for the unrighteous. If men were perfect or good, we would have no need of instruction on what not to do. We would do by our nature what is good, but as it stands the whole world is enslaved by sin and the power of sin is in the law given. Sin would have no power to condemn us eternally if no Law had been given, or how can God find fault when he didn't tell us what was wrong. Where there is no law there is also no violation. I am not saying that God's laws are evil, but that God wants to show us just how destructive sin is that it even takes advantage of the good law given by God to entice us to sin. Since man is a slave to sin all the more when they here a law. I would not have known about coveting if it hadn't been for God's laws, but when I heard the law. I stood condemned by the law and through it sin killed me and it continued to reign in my life.
My point here is that how will any revealed law bring me closer to God when that same law shows me that I am a sinner and it condemns me to death. Get one thing straight though we are worse than animals we commit mass murder genocide and violent rape something all animals don't even consider. They may kill to eat but we kill for pleasure and riches. Who do you think you are surely you've broken God's commands what do you think that makes you. Beats are ignorant if anything we are worse off because we have God's laws and still disobey.
I don't want to keep pushing this, but did any of you fast for all the days in ramadan. if you didn't, then what will your punishment be.
He could be influenced by the Devil and be demon possessed or by his own lust for power
A ridiculously lame attempt .
A lame attempt at what after reading this I think you have misunderstood my point. I was not claiming that Islam arose by a demon possessed prophet, but it is interesting that you gave such a response. The message I was trying to get across here was that revelation by prophets are not the end all revelation by God. God is so great He will never be out done in His goodness. I ask you who is greater you or your prophet? You would no doubt say your prophet. If I am wrong in any of this let me know. Why are prophets greater than the run of the mill man? Because they comprehend God better than man seeing as how God revealed himself to them directly. I know that this didn't happen with Mohamed an angel appeared to him, but the other prophets. I want the readers of this exchange to understand it is much greater for God to reveal Himself to mankind, rather than to a prophet who then reveals God mankind
First of all , I can easily claim the same about any religion out there including Christianity . So keep these imaginations where they belong , the realm of imaginations
Yes you can and I encourage you to be sceptical. Jews were told to test the word of "prophets" if they didn't come true then they were to be stoned and they didn't speak on God's behalf. Christians are supposed to test the spirits if the message isn't in line with God's words then it is false. I am sure you can think of a similar situation in Islam if you can't think of any I can give you one. I could attack your religion but I don't think it's productive I'm not muslim so I wouldn't know all the ins and outs of your religion by reading certain articles online. I'm not here to attack your religion but further understand it and reason with you the best I can from what the bible says after all this sight is called answering Chistianity.
Secondly , Allah challenges mankind and Jinns to bring a book rivaling Quran and the challenge remains until the judgement day :
17:88 Say, "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants."
So use whatever sorcerrors or shamans or whatever it is and attempt it . You'll fail on the spot .
This is the kind of thing that troubles me the most. This is how you defend the quran. The whole point of this post was to see if their was any substance behind your religion. I asked you guys several times to tell me what it is you people preach and I get no answer.
What would you tell some one who wants to convert to Islam and what is the benefit. The whole reason I asked if you could still have a religion without the quran was to get you to understand that God is greater than His words. Furthermore words are meaningless when compared to actions. What benefit is their to God saying he is infinite in Love if He never demonstrates it anyone can talk all they want, but if their is any being in existence that will back up what He says with actions it is God. My entire point of this post is that Christianity would still be alive and well without the bible because what I preach doesn't depend on the words of God, but the actions of God. That He became a man to live the perfect life and die for my sins. God to whom all things owe everything didn't take my sins into account against me on the contrary He came to serve me His enemy and show me His infinite Love and take my punishment in my place. This is greater than all the pages in any holy book combined because God is letting His actions speak for themselves. Something all other gods are unwilling to do.
Thirdly , lust of power ? You're clearly severly lacking knowledge of Islam and its history . The prophet peace upn him had wealth in the least of his interest . He passed away with his shield bonded - I think that's the word - at a Jewish man . Long nights would pass without a flame ignited in his house . And we wouldn't end anytime soon if I keep going
Again i'm going to tell you that what I wrote was not about Islam, but it was a challenge against all men who claim to be prophets on God's behalf. There have always been false prophets in the world and such men were motivated by their own lust for power and satan. I don't know anything about Mohamed you won't tell me what your religion teaches or how you would make converts what makes you think any other muslim tells me about Mohamed. My main point still stands the actions of God are worth more then the words through a prophet.
You are terribly mistaken if you think we'll just believe on the fly that YOUR religion is the true message from Allah . Why should I believe it is ? Can't you see that I can make the same allegations you made about Islam ?
I'm not expecting you to take it on the fly. I'm reasoning with you. I hope that you will see that God personally revealing himself to mankind is greater than God revealing Himself to mankind through prophets. If it is greater to be revealed personally then God must do it because He is the greatest possible being. Therefore, no matter what you have been taught about Jesus not being God, it is worthwhile to look at Christianity since it is the only religion that has God personally revealing himself to mankind.
Your ignorance of Islam is proving to be irritating really .
Quote
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The deeds of anyone of you will not save you (from the (Hell) Fire)." They said, "Even you (will not be saved by your deeds), O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)?" He said, "No, even I (will not be saved) unless and until Allah bestows His Mercy on me. Therefore, do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and worship Allah in the forenoon and in the afternoon and during a part of the night, and always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course whereby you will reach your target (Paradise).
This is my whole point so far you are the only muslim to bring this up. This is why I believe some muslims don't believe in the hadiths it is hard to back up a statement like this. Of course I believe that man are not saved by their own deeds like your own prophet put it its impossible yet all the muslims I talk to, talk about a cosmic scale God puts us on to see if we will go to heaven if our good deeds out weigh are bad. I know I am going to heaven because God has already had mercy on me.
several things here
1. if your prophet wont make it to heaven on what he does what chance do you have?
2. How can God have mercy and still be a just judge (if He lets sin go then he is not just)?
3. Why would Mohammed encourage his followers to do something in futility? (its impossible for them to get to heaven by doing good so they should continue to do good?)
4. What takes a person to heaven according to your religion how can anybody be sure they are going?
5. Some people believe that Mohammed is perfect and sinless, but this verse proves that he is not because God doesn't need to have mercy on those who have never sinned and if he never sinned then his righteous deeds would take him to heaven because God cannot condemn someone who never sinned. Why do some Muslims say Mohammed is perfect.
6. I am 100% positive I am going to Heaven why would I convert to Islam when their main prophet wasn't even sure?
7. All if God's prophets were certain they were going to be with God for eternity. If Mohammed is a prophet from God why isn't he sure he is going to Heaven?
8. Christianity teaches good deeds will never take us to heaven and those who try to do good to go to heaven will go to Hell. God (Jesus) takes us to Heaven, and we do good as an expression of our love for God. Which is a better motive love for God, or fear of God?
9. If I do good things to go to heaven (paradise or the target) then aren't I being selfish, and If I am being selfish then how can anything I do be considered good?
10. If God has mercy on us because we do good then how can it be considered mercy? Mercy means we don't get what we deserve, but if God looks the other way because we do good He's not being merciful He is rewarding us for doing good.
Answer any of these the best you can use whatever you like but try to answer them.
This line alone contradicts itself . You've been going on about how man is imperfect and always fails , and now you want me to believe the blasphemy that the almighty creator and lord of this creation is man ?! Not to mention that your own Bible allegates imperfection to Allah exalted he is from what you describe .
Jesus isn't a man that's what you believe. I believe Jesus has always existed as God the Son and He became a man to show us God The Father. Jesus, the man, was not conceived by man He was conceived By God the Holy Spirit (the quran also teaches this), therefore He was born without sin just Like Adam. However unlike Adam He knew God the Father intimately and perfectly as God the Son before He decided to become Jesus and be born into this world. He gave up all this knowledge and power as God and became a man limiting himself to time and His own creation. He grew and learned more and more about the world all the while living in perfect union and harmony with God. What man (Adam) was supposed to do. From a human perspective it was possible for Jesus to fall into sin He was tempted by satan himself and still didn't sin He obeyed God completely even dying the worst death imaginable because He Loved God The Father and those whom He died for.
None of this contradicts man didn't create this world Jesus (as God the Son) did before He decided to become a man. You may not have known that but that's what I believe and that is what the injuils teach.
Being fully man and fully Divine
R.I.P : Common Sense .
Like I explained When Jesus was a man He was a man in every sense of the word, like Adam was a man, but unlike Adam Jesus displayed the qualities of God that only God up to that point can express loving beyond measure obedient to an infinite degree hating all sin. This is what makes Jesus Divine He is perfectly obedient to God the Father. He is what gives my Life hope as a Christian. I'm not saved on my righteousness or my obedience but that of Jesus'. In this way my salvation is assured as God will not reject Jesus I will not be rejected as I am His.
Do not compare between the best of humans , the prophets as told in Islam , and the false pictures you make of them in your Bible of adultery , incest , unjust murder , and idol worshiping . They are the best of the creatures whom Allah chose to deliver his message . And it's ironic how you contradict yourself in one reply and even in one sentence . You kept talking about how our limited minds can't comprehend Allah , then you make the claim we do comprehend him if he revelas himself as an imperfect creature . Exalted he is from what you describe !
I don't know what you mean but if you are taught that Mohammed is the best of humans they are wrong we already saw that Mohammed put himself in the same boat as all of humanity in that quote you gave about good deeds and mercy. Whoever taught you this is wrong or you can take the opposite side and say that Mohammed was wrong.
All men sin this is what makes Jesus unique because He didn't. I'm not going to say the Bible is wrong because it gives an accurate portrayal of what man is like. If all the prophets were perfect then we would have never noticed Jesus, and if they could be perfect then why can't I. I would certainly be going to hell if all the prophets were perfect because I am not. How can God show His love to the prophets if they are perfect part of understanding God's love is to experience His continual and infinite forgiveness Grace and mercy something that will never happen to a perfect person.
God is far exalted above anything I could possibly describe or the Bible that has been my Whole point all along. How God is so much greater then the words of Holy Books. God's action of becoming a man to die and serve me is something I have yet to fully comprehend the action is to great for my finite mind to absorb a kind of action and plan that has originated in the infinite mind Of God. Nevertheless I know this has all come from God because it is to perfect and contradicts all of what Human biengs would do. After all God is much greater than Human beings, so his actions are far greater than mans actions. If its illogical or stupid to you perhaps it is to great for you to understand.
Further more , your question was about the delusion of "What would happen to religion without a book" and we told you to keep that delusion in your head . So what's the commotion ?
I've already explained by asking the question I hoped to see the learned Muslims take an honest look at their beliefs and tell me of the substance found in their religion. But all of my questions are met with hostility and left wondering if your quran teaches that God is infinite in love then where is this love displayed in Muslims. Further more the commotion seems to be some people are unable or unwilling to think outside of their own religion even for a second to save some one who is on the outside. Please respond back I have asked so many questions here it would be nice to see what you believe regarding them.
