There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an

[AhmadFarooq]

@StardustyPsyche,

-   “Ok, depends how one defines "overtake".  In angular measure, yes, the sun and the moon do overtake each other.  If, on a circular track, one racer overtakes another that does not mean he collides with the other, rather, that his his angular measure passes that of the other.”

The following is from my own reasoning which can be faulty. In a circular track, both the racers will be having almost the same starting and ending point or in other words the same or similar “orbit”. The sun and the moon don’t have the same orbit. In the geocentric model I suppose in a way they would, but not in the heliocentric model. A runner on one track cannot “overtake” a runner from another track. Therefore, from an observer on Earth’s point of view these heavenly bodies might appear to be at times “overtaking” each other, but in reality they are competing on completely different “tracks”.

Regards,

[Tarek Habbal]

You see how he been avoiding my questions and replies like the plague?


I know where to squeeze

[StardustyPsyche]

Brother Ahmad,
We are getting into a rather fine detail of parsing an English word I am not certain is absolutely the correct or best translation, but "overtake" does seem to be a fair word to use in this case.

When driving on a multi-lane road in the same direction one car overtakes another when it passes the other.  If they were in the same lane there would be, instead, a rear end collision.

To overtake on a curve is similar, one car passes the other, but in different lanes.  On a circular track the runners run in different lanes, and to overtake means to pass but along a different path.  Passing means to achieve a greater distance run which can also be expressed as a greater angular measure traversed.

In the 7th century nearly all people accepted the Ptolemaic system.


Note, the moon, mercury, venus, sun, mars, jupiter, and saturn were treated the same in terms of motion and were all considered planets of the earth. 

Also, note the position of the stars in a spherical shell outside the planets, hence the reference to spheres in the Qur'an.

It is interesting to note that this system got the order of the planets correct, is correct in that the moon is closest to the earth, and interchanges the position of the earth and the sun such that mercury and venus are inside whereas mars, jupiter, and saturn are outside which is also correct.

This model was no accident, rather, it fits quiet well with careful naked eye observations.  Not shown in this image are the epicycles needed to account for retrograde motion.

So, brother Ahmad, we can see that the verses in the Qur'an are simply poetic and very simple words that describe the prevailing view of that day.

But, those words are in error to the extent that the planets do overtake each other as they move in their circular tracks, just like racers who stay in their own lanes but overtake by running faster.

The heliocentric model was known to learned people as a hypothesis dating back to ancient Greece, and at least one Muslim scholar did in fact promote that hypothesis.  But, it seemed rather fantastic to people that the Earth, which is obviously standing still, would actually be moving, and the sun, which is obviously moving, would actually be standing still.  That idea seemed so outlandish to nearly all humans that Aristotle and Ptolemy ruled the day for millennia.

It was Christian Europe that deduced the truth we all know today, and corrected the scientific errors of the Qur'an and nearly everybody else, thanks to Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton.

[StardustyPsyche]

Mr. Habbal,
Asked and answered.  But, you seem unwilling or unable to engage in consideration of your fallacy of hasty generalization.  See « Reply #99 on: January 18, 2016, 06:14:35 AM » for a more complete explanation of your error.

As for your repeated questions about 9/11, again, asked and answered:
The topic of this thread is "There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an" and that is the topic I intend to discuss here.

[Tarek Habbal]

Riiiite... you "answered"


Still i will take the scientists' words over yours.

And they confirmed the Fly's miracle

Subhanallah

How did Sayyidna Muhammad know about pathogens and anti-pathogens 1500 years back.. one revelation among 100s others i may add 

Mind blowing

Shalom!

[Tarek Habbal]

Right

In case you missed this one:


"This Hadeeth has been proven by NON MUSLIM SCIENTISTS and BIOLOGISTS."
No, the Hadith asserts a pathogen on 1 wing and and antidote on the other wing.  All the above fails to support the alternate wing prediction.

No, it is not mind blowing that medicines are made from extracts of living things.  That's what penicillin, aspirin, and many other drugs are."

http://vigilantcitizen.com/forums/Thread-An-atheist-and-a-fly

So you just admitted the Hadeeth is correct.. I see cracks are showing.. You starting to contradict yourself there


We created man from an extract of clay.  Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed.  Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance).. (Quran, 23:12-14)

“We created man from an extract of clay. “
No, man did not come from clay.  Science tells us man evolved from lower primates.

What science? NWO pseudo-science you meant Yes he was created from clay. Same elements.. When you will die.. you will become dust/soil; one more thing, the Mainstream theory of human evolution is a hoax perpetrated by no other than the Satanic NWO, with the feeble minded falling to it just like they fell to the 9/11 lie

“We made him as a drop”
A drop of what, semen?  How obvious.  It was well known that semen is necessary to reproduction in humans.

It is the accuracy dude. ZERO contradictions.. what are the odds of these thousands of miracles being CORRECT all together, unless it was a divine revelation?

Thank you for confirming my faith further

“in a place of settlement”
Semen can’t go too far once it is inside a vagina, now can it?  Actually it doesn’t settle, it mixes with the woman’s own fluids.

And what's that place called? lol..

“We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot),”
Obviously a crude description of the products of miscarriage.  When a woman has an miscarriage it looks vaguly like a leech or a blood clot.  Of course it is neither, so the verse is mistaken, but it is crudely description of the products of miscarriage.  The cord makes a baby a "suspended thing", how obvious.

The image was provided earlier. You are just deceiving/lying to yourself.

“We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)”
Again the words are factually incorrect, we do not come from a chewed substance.  But this is just another crude description of the products of miscarriage.

Ditto

The Qur’an offers only obvious observations, crude descriptions available to 7th century man, or outright errors.

The Quran is the Word of God.

Thank you for strengthening my faith

[AhmadFarooq]

@StardustyPsyche,

At this point I’m really confused about what you are actually trying to say.

From what I understand you are trying to say that because the Qur’an contradicts the Ptolemaic model or at-least part of it, it is a scientific mistake.
Using the analogy of a multilane road, in the Ptolemaic model the Sun, the moon and all planets are in a position to “overtake” each other from the perspective of a person on Earth, as would’ve been observed at the time of the solar eclipse. The moon would have “overtaken” or “passed-by” the Sun on that “multilane road”.

Or in other words, as Sahih International used the word “reach” instead of “overtake”, in that solar eclipse the sun would have had definitely from the perspective of a person on Earth “reached” the moon. But because of the difference of the “multilane roads” these two objects aren’t actually overtaking eachother.

For example, a ferry “orbiting” the Statue of Liberty and a car “orbiting” the Eiffel Tower cannot overtake each other because their “multilane roads” are different. From the perspective of a person to the east of these two buildings with the two objects (i.e. the ferry and the car) in his straight line of sight, who is able to look at only these objects, can theoretically say that, according to his line of sight, one is overtaking the other, but from the perspective of a person in space the question doesn’t even arises. Apologies for the confusing example.

-   “Note, the moon, mercury, venus, sun, mars, jupiter, and saturn were treated the same in terms of motion and were all considered planets of the earth”
What’s this got to do here? This kind of confirms the Qur’an.

-   “Also, note the position of the stars in a spherical shell outside the planets, hence the reference to spheres in the Qur'an.”

OK, so when a “celestial sphere” is used as a practical tool for “spherical astronomy”, are modern astronomers accepting the Ptolemaic model too? Additionally, out of the eight different (only talking about English here) translations of both the verses only “Shakir” is the one using the word “spheres” in each verse and from what I know about the meanings of the individual words none of them are individually translated as “spheres”. “Shakir”” probably used the word as what he deemed to be an explanation.

-   “So, brother Ahmad, we can see that the verses in the Qur'an are simply poetic and very simple words that describe the prevailing view of that day.”

The prevailing view of the day includes the sun and the moon “overtaking” or “passing-by” in the metaphorical “multilane road”.

-   “But, those words are in error to the extent that the planets do overtake each other as they move in their circular tracks, just like racers who stay in their own lanes but overtake by running faster.”
I don’t know if there are more verses talking about this matter or not, but where Qur’an 36:40 is concerned it is specifically talking about the sun and the moon and no other planets.

-   “It was Christian Europe that deduced the truth we all know today, and corrected the scientific errors of the Qur'an and nearly everybody else, thanks to Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton.”
More like the ones who got famous for deducing the truth, kind of like Christopher Columbus’ “discovery”. As with most historical discoveries no one can be sure who originally presented the idea.
George Saliba, a Professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies in the Department of Middle East and Asian Studies at Columbia University, in his book ‘Islamic Science and the Making of the European Renaissance’, “details the innovations (including new mathematical tools) made by the Islamic astronomers from the thirteenth to sixteenth centuries, and offers evidence that Copernicus could have known of and drawn on their work.”
Source: http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/islamic-science-and-making-european-renaissance

[QuranSearchCom]

Note, the moon, mercury, venus, sun, mars, jupiter, and saturn were treated the same in terms of motion and were all considered planets of the earth.

Stardusty,

In space, any object can be the center of its system or even the Universe.  Not that Allah Almighty ever said this about earth in the Glorious Quran, but the Noble Verses that speak about the sun and the moon and other planets in relation to the earth are not in contradiction with sceince.  You can technically and scientifically speak a system with the earth being the focus or the center.  After all, this is our planet that we live in.  Consider the following images.  All rotate around each others even when the sun appears to be the center and the focus:







The Earth's Movement in Space:

Watch this video to see the Noble Verses that speak about earth's movement in space:


 

Also visit this article:  What about the sun "running" (different from the "sun's orbit" or "orbit of the sun" in other Noble Verses) in Noble Verse 36:38?    A must-watch video: Scientists today believe that our galaxy is currently traveling towards a Black Hole and Star Vega.  So the sun, which is the mother of our Solar System, will not just exist forever.  There will come a time where it will come to a halt in both motion and light.    Also, the Glorious Quran [1] declares that the earth is: 1- Spherical. 2- Suspended in Space. 3- Rotating around itself. (emphasis on dahaha and its derivatives) 4- Is traveling in Space. 5- Also, all celestial bodies are Yaa'rujoon (traveling in orbits) in space.  Another Video:  The countless orbits in the Universe, and the day-layer reveals the sun's brightness [2] [3] [4] [5]. Video file. The Motion of Earth in the Noble Quran. Egg-shaped earth.    A STUNNING Hadith [1] [2] [3] [4] from Prophet Muhammad regarding the rising and setting POINTS:

 

To the reader, the following links thoroughly demonstrate many of the Glorious Quran's STUNNING and Overwhelming Numerical and Scientific Miracles:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[StardustyPsyche]

Brother Ahmad,
Yes, I see I was not as clear as I should have been.  Thank you for pointing out how a reader could easily conclude I was jumping around in my points.  Fair enough.

I was speaking from several perspectives, and in my mind at the time it was all very clear, but as I mentioned previously, I do not have perfect powers of articulation :-)

Please allow me to put it this way:
The text of the Qur'an on celestial observations is easily accounted for by the prevailing notion of the day, geocentrism as described in the Ptolemaic model. 

That is my core refutation that any of the celestial descriptions in the Qur'an are miraculous.  They are easily accounted for as the mere descriptions of the prevailing theories of the day.  Any ordinary man writing with no divine guidance whatever would and did write essentially those same words again and again.  That alone disqualifies any celestial descriptions in the Qur'an as scientific miracles.

To qualify as a scientific miracle there must be something about the text that necessarily requires a supernatural origin.  All assertions of scientific miracles in the Qur'an fail that test.

Scientific analysis still contains the observation of apparent motion.  Apparent motion is the motion we observe from our point of view.  That is the sense I was referring to with my discussions about overtaking.  From our point of view the sun, moon, and planets do overtake each other.  So, the description in the Qur'an, from the point of view of apparent motion, is correct in many details, but fails to account for the motions at new moon, possibly because those motions are not easily observed and must be deduced by careful record keeping and calculations over time.

To the extent the Qur'anic descriptions are a description of the Ptolemaic system they are simply mistaken, since we now know the heliocentric view is correct.

In a rather feeble attempt to salvage this dismal situation in the Qur'an some have tried a bit of after the fact cherry picking by saying the "orbit" was not the Ptolemaic orbit of the sun but rather the orbit of the sun in the galaxy.  I must say that is a rather desperate bit of rationalization, given that no Islamic scholars predicted such an orbit based upon the text prior to the scientific discovery of the galaxy.

If the the Qur'an had made the statement "the cloudy band across the sky is comprised of a hundred thousand thousand thousand stars which are actually various sizes of suns, and they are all orbiting a common center of material, with our sun orbiting once every two hundred fifty thousand thousand years" then the assertion of the word "orbit" to galactic orbit would be credible, but it is not.

As for the spheres, again, there is no necessity of divine origin and therefore their mention is no evidence of a scientific miracle.  Yes, spherical coordinates are a part of modern math and science, but the ancients long imagined celestial spheres of various sorts.  The Qur'an mentions "sphere" in relation to its celestial descriptions, so again, this cannot be considered a miracle because it was so commonly used in that era.

"More like the ones who got famous for deducing the truth, kind of like Christopher Columbus’ “discovery”."
Indeed, brother Ahmad, scientists do not create truth, they deduce a preexisting truth.  To remain mired in the falsehoods of ancient texts is to be inhibited from deducing truth.

The truth about our existence is to be found, not in the ancient mythologies recorded in holy books, rather, in careful observation and deduction of the universe itself.  When a man succeeds a step in that direction, he does indeed earn our respect and gains deserved fame.

[StardustyPsyche]

Brother Osama,
“but the Noble Verses speak about the sun and the moon and other planets in relation to the earth are not in contradiction with science.”

Even if I were to grant that, which I do not, still, that does not constitute a “miracle” much less a “stunning scientific miracle” as you propose repeatedly.

Compatibility does not equal “miracle”.  The Qur’an says there is a moon.  Modern science says there is a moon.  Ok, but what does that prove?  That is an easily observable fact.  Easily observable facts are compatible with modern science.  They are not miracles.

“You can technically and scientifically speak a system with the earth being the focus or the center”
Only if one has a very egocentric worldview, or we are speaking of apparent motion.  No comprehensive modern scientific model puts the Earth at the center of a celestial system.


“All rotate around each others even when the sun appears to be the center and the focus:”
Objects in a system under study rotate around a common center of mass.  Ok, I do not see how this in any way supports any supposed “scientific miracles” in the Qur’an.

You go on to assert these things are claimed in the Qur’an but I did not see the text quoted you assert these claims come from, so I suspect your claims are not valid in the first place, but let’s just suppose for a moment the Qur’an does assert these things.  Are they miraculous?

To be a scientific miracle they must be necessarily of divine origin.  To be a miracle they must require a divine origin.  If any human origin is possible they are disqualified from the classification as “miracle”

“Also, the Glorious Quran [1] declares that the earth is:”

“1- Spherical.”
Not a miracle because there were many known evidences of the spherical shape of the Earth.  The Greeks even calculated the diameter of the Earth.

2- Suspended in Space.
Not a miracle because celestial models of the day placed the earth in space, surrounded by planets and stars also in space

3- Rotating around itself. (emphasis on dahaha and its derivatives)
Not a miracle because it had been proposed previously by ordinary humans.

4- Is traveling in Space.
Really?  Where?  Please cite for me the Quranic passage that explicitly states the Earth is orbiting the Sun, and our solar system is orbiting our galactic center of mass.
Not a miracle because no such specific descriptions exist.

5- Also, all celestial bodies are Yaa'rujoon (traveling in orbits) in space
Please, brother Osama, everybody thought that.  That is what the Ptolemaic system was, the celestial bodies in their orbits.  A few even thought the sun was at the center and other bodies were in orbits.  These were ideas well known in that day.
Need I say, not a miracle?

You underlined
“it sets in one place and rises in another”
That is your “miracle”?  The sun sets in one place and rises in another place?  I must admit to being flabbergasted.  Is there anything more obvious in life than the fact that the sun sets in one place and rises in another?

Yes, that is compatible with modern science…that is indeed true.  And it is indeed stunning, but I am very sorry to say not stunning in the sense you generally speak of.

I really do warmly invite you to take another look at brother Hamza’s  journey on this subject.  I realize you do not consider him to be a linguistic authority, and certainly, speaking Arabic as a first language is a significant advantage in Quranic study.

But, when a man cites “it sets in one place and rises in another” in support of a divinity hypothesis I believe linguistic nuances of translation become less important than the ability to analyze scientific questions while avoiding logical fallacies.  In that regard I suggest you could gain some valuable insights from brother Hamza if you are not prepared to accept them from an atheist such as I.

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/

[Tarek Habbal]

This guy is discussing science while asserting that the evolution hoax is truthful

Priceless


So far you have not been able to refute even one claim.

Tell me something, how did the Quran know there are undersea waves? Sayyida Muhammad pbuh had a submarine?

How did the  Quran know if you climb high it becomes harder to breathe? was Sayyidna Muhammad a Sherpa (climber)?

How did the Quran know that plants come in pairs?

How did the Quran know about photosynthesis...


and countless more.

ALL of them, 100s are spot on

In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly, if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5%.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Let’s assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e. the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it up to you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses.


This is a clear cut proof that the Quran is man-written and not a divine revelation.

/Sarcasm off

[QuranSearchCom]

Stardusty,

Debating with you has devolved to ridiculous levels.  You just like to endlessly argue and argue even when you know your position is weak, or even soundly refuted.  I won't let you drag the brothers here into your endless spiral, especially when we have thoroughly refuted you here.

You keep bringing your nonsense about what brother Hamza Tzortzis said as if he is the ultimate authority.  I have already refuted you and him by pointing out that he never even addressed the Numerical Miracles in the Glorious Quran.  And you also danced around this point.  And he also said he's uncertain about the Scientific Miracles.  So he wasn't even speaking with certainty, and worst, he is not even an Arabic speaker!  I have used 7 encyclopedic Arabic dictionaries that demonstrated the Noble Words' Scientific meanings.  The reader can visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/sci_prophecy.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

I also showed you Allah Almighty's Divine Prophecy and Promise about someday revealing His Miracles in the Universe and inside ourselves so that the Miracles of the Quran would make it abundantly clear that this Holy Book is indeed the Divine Truth.

I am going to freeze this thread.  People have lives, and I don't like it when they start getting obsessed with blogging.  It becomes addictive and compulsory. 

To the reader, to see where Stardusty had been thoroughly refuted, begin reading here:

www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php?topic=1999.msg8248#msg8248

Also, my refutation to brother Hamza Tzortzis is located here:

www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php?topic=1999.msg8259#msg8259

You're still welcomed to blog on this board.  Just don't spam please!  I still want to be fair to you.

This thread is now locked.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[QuranSearchCom]

And Stardusty, here are links that talk about other Scientific Miracles in space:

1-  Black holes, www.answering-christianity.com/black_holes.htm

2-  Pulsars (knocking and piercing), www.answering-christianity.com/pulsars_are_knocking_and_penetrating.htm

3-  Our sun will turn into a White Dwarf (Science says because it lacks iron).  The Glorious Quran said also that our sun will turn into a White Dwarf: www.answering-christianity.com/sun_becomes_white_dwarf_star.htm

4-  The expansion of the earth.  Science declares that it was 10% of its current size today.  The Glorious Quran fully supports this:  www.answering-christianity.com/adam_90_feet_tall.htm

5-  The moon reflects light, www.answering-christianity.com/ahmed_eldin/light_of_moon.htm

6-  The earth's egg-shaped physical form and orbit: www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm

7-  The moon's S-Shaped orbit around the earth: www.answering-christianity.com/moon_orbit_miracle.htm

8-  The Universe is full of Cosmic Webs: www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm#explosion_of_universe

9-  When a Solar System explodes (Samaa' is singular Heaven and not Plural Samawaat) it blows up and forms a shape of a rose: www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm#explosion_of_universe



There are literally 10s of other STUNNING Miracles mentioned in the Glorious Quran.  See them at:

www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/sci_prophecy.htm

This brief post does not do it justice!

Don't forget also to visit the Glorious Quran's stunning Numerical Miracles:

www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm

Take care,
Osama Abdallah