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GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Re: Rebuttal to Ishmael is not the ancestor of Muhammad
« on: July 13, 2013, 01:33:57 PM »
waalikom asalam.
Thank you for the link brother.
Thank you for the link brother.
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GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Re: Rebuttal to Ishmael is not the ancestor of Muhammad
« on: July 10, 2013, 02:53:07 PM »
guys, we really need to refute this, i'm still searching on the web and there is NO ANSWER 
can it be posible ?
and by answer, I mean good answers, not just genealogies because we know how these can be modified or altered by time.
can it be posible ? and by answer, I mean good answers, not just genealogies because we know how these can be modified or altered by time.
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GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Rebuttal to Ishmael is not the ancestor of Muhammad
« on: July 10, 2013, 02:08:38 PM »
Blest ramadan to you all, dear muslim brothers.
I noticed that there are a lots of articles about Ishmael not being Muhammad's ancestor, and yet i didn't find any rebuttal.
I'll just post this article and please, lets do efforts to rebute this site and their claim:
"
IS MOHAMMED A DESCENDENT OF ISHMAEL?
By Dr. Rafat Amari
Muslims believe that Mohammed is a descendant of Ishmael. As proof of their position, Muslims refer to genealogies written around 770-775 A.D. by Ibn Ishak.
What he has written is simply not true. Ishmaelite tribes, especially the tribe of Nebaioth from which, according to Ibn Ishak, Mohammed is said to have come, were nomadic tribes who lived in the Sinai and Fertile Crescent deserts. These tribes disappeared after the 7th century B.C.
Mohammed's family was a Sabaean Yemeni family, while the Ishmaelites, who lived in the deserts of the Fertile Crescent, became extinct many centuries before Mohammed's family left Yemen.
Historians say that the family of Mohammed was a family which lived in Saba-Yemen. In the 5th century A.D., Qusayy Bin Kilab, the 8th ancestor of Mohammed, gathered an alliance of many Yemeni families forming Quraish, the tribe from which Mohammed later came. These families only came to occupy Mecca in the 5th century A.D. The city of Mecca was built by the tribe of Khuzaa'h in the 4th century A.D.
Mohammed’s family is not connected to any Ishmaelite tribe because Mohammed’s family didn’t leave Yemen until the 5th century A.D., and that’s about 1,100 years after the Ishmaelites disappeared. Mohammed’s tribe could not have lived in the same locations as the Ishmaelite tribes at any time throughout history.
The genealogy fabricated by Ibn-Ishak contradicts the sayings of Mohammed, who expressed his ignorance about his ancestors prior to his 17th ancestor.
Ibn Ishak was considered by the Muslim scholars of his time as being guilty of forgery and fabricating false genealogies.[1]
Long before Ibn Ishak, Muslims who lived in Mohammed’s own time also fabricated genealogies in an attempt to connect Mohammed to the descendants of Ishmael. Mohammed, himself, rejected all of these false genealogies, and he put limits regarding the genealogy of his ancestors. Regarding Mohammed’s own rejection of the false genealogies, Amru bin al-As wrote:
Mohammed genealogized himself regarding his ancestors until he reached al-Nather bin Kinaneh, then he said, “anyone who claimed otherwise or added further ancestors, has lied.â€[2][ii]
By this, Mohammed confessed that neither he, nor anyone else, knew about his ancestors beyond al-Nather bin Kinaneh. Nather bin Kinaneh is the 17th ancestor in the genealogy which Mohammed recognized as true. Other narrations of the customs, or sayings, of Mohammed, called Hadiths, show Mohammed refused to be genealogized prior to Maad, معدwho some suggested, was the 4th ancestor prior to al-Nather bin Kinaneh.[3][iii]
When we look at the ancestors of Mohammed, it’s reasonable to estimate 30 years for each generation of the 17 ancestors of Mohammed. Therefore, we can conclude that Mohammed knew about the genealogy of his tribe as far back as about 510 years. If we want to add the other four ancestors that Mohammed listed, we would go back 630 years. The truth is, nobody knew beyond such date. How, then, could Ibn Ishak and his followers reliably document a genealogy back to Ishmael, who lived in 2050 B.C.? This gives approximately 2000 years between the 21st ancestor of Mohammed and Ishmael. How could Ibn Ishak claim the Ishmaelites lived in Mecca during this period and give details about their history when Mohammed himself said that nobody knew about his relatives prior to his 17th or 21st ancestor? Mecca was not even in existence during this period, as we have clearly demonstrated. Ibn Ishak’s genealogy contradicts Mohammed’s own claims that he did not know his ancestors farther back than al-Nather bin Kinaneh, the 17th ancestor before himself.
All the genealogies that appeared at the time of Mohammed were considered by Mohammed and his close followers to be false.
Many versions of Hadith of Mohammed coming from the followers of Mohammed all report that Mohammed opposed to be genelogized until Ishmael. All his closest contemporaries and followers considered the genealogies appearing at his time to be false. Among the people who reported Mohammed’s opposition to such genealogies were his wife, Aisheh, and his cousin, Ibn Abbas, one of the most important reporters of Mohammed’s Hadith.[4][iv] Ibn Ishak went against what all these people had said by creating genealogies which connect the ancestors of Mohammed with Ishmael.
Ibn Ishak altered the genealogies listed by Moses in Genesis; he inserted Arabic names from his time and contradicted the history regarding Amalek.
The fabrication went beyond this. The genealogies created by Ibn Ishak and others who came after him inserted Arabic names into the genealogies which we find in Genesis. For example, Ibn Ishak inserted the Arabic name “Ya’rab,†which comes from the word “Arab,†listing him as the son of “ Khahtan.†Ibn Ishak then replaced Khahtan for Joktan, mentioned in the book of Genesis as the son of Eber, the son of Arphaxad, and the third son of Shem, the son of Noah.[5][v] We know that the term “Arab†didn’t exist until the 10th century B.C. How, then, could it be inserted into history shortly following Noah, perhaps around 5500 B.C.?
Ibn Ishak went still farther. He changed the name of Lud, the fourth son of Shem, to Luth. He then made Luth the father of Amalek, who fathered the Amalekites. He also claimed that Amalek and his tribe lived in Mecca, and he claimed that the ancient Egyptians were also descendants of Amalek. He then made Amalek’s original name “Arib,†just to connect him with the Arabs.[6][vi] Indirectly, through these false genealogies, Ibn Ishak claimed that Mecca existed at the time of Noah and his grandson, Lud. This directly contradicts the historical facts we examined before, showing that Mecca didn’t exist until the 4th century A.D.
Amalek is a descendant of Esau, the son of Isaac. Genesis 36:12 states that Timma was a concubine of Eliphaz, the first born of Esau, and that she bore Amalek to Eliphaz. Amalek became the father of the Amalekites, which was an Edomite tribe which originally lived in southern Jordan, but moved to the eastern part of the Sinai, as was attested at the time of Moses. The Amalekites became extinct after the 10th century B.C. There’s no mention of Amalek in any inscription or in the writings of any Greek historian, which would indicate that the tribe lived in central, western or northern Arabia.
Refuting the Claim About Jurhum
Ibn Ishak claimed that the tribe of Jurhum lived in Mecca as far back as the time of Abraham. He also claimed that Jurhum was the grandson of Joktan, the son of Eber. He further claimed that Jurhum’s original name was “Hathrem.â€[7][vii] The significance of the name “Hathrem†is that it is characteristic of Arabic-style names used at the time of Ibn Ishak, which was in the 8th century A.D. The names given in the inscriptions of Yemen and northern Arabia are totally different from the style of the names given in Ibn Ishak’s genealogies, which reflect the names of his generation. It is a fact that no inscription, no Greek or Roman historian, and no geographer who visited Arabia, ever mentioned a tribe called Jurhum. The first mention of Jurhum we find it in a poesy of Ummyya bin Abi al-Salet, the maternal cousin of Mohammed, who also claimed to be a prophet. The poem attributed to Ummyya says “the Lord of Ad and Jurhum†[8][viii]. First of all, the poem most probably was composed after the event of Islam, because we do not have in Jahiliyah pre-Islam any mention about Jurhum. The idea that many of the Jahiliyah poetry were added after Islam is embraced by great scholars such as Tah Hussein, the famous Egyptian scholar. Secondly, for the case of argument, if we want to admit the originality of such verse, we could not build upon it a history that a nation called Jurhum existed in Arabia since the time of Abraham, because Ummyya was contemporary of Mohammed, and he can't be a source of documentation about a nation which would have existed prior to his time by 2700 years. Because there were no archiving methods and no printing like we have today, it’s commonly accepted that tradition can be considered accurate only if it was written within four centuries of the writers. If Jurhum existed as tribe in Arabia, it could have been a small tribe that appeared some time after the Christian era. Since no classical writer mentioned this tribe, if existed, it should have been insignificant. Ummyyia's poems are full of myths: such as his claim that the Queen of Saba, who visited king Solomon was his aunt; he claimed this to justify his claim to the role of prophecy. In addition, Ummyyia had relationship with a Jinn-devil, who used to instruct him, which proves that he was a part of the occult religion of Arabia. If we want to accept this poem as composed by him, how can we rely on poems of such personality to establish history dating back to 2700 years before his time?
Enormous historical mistakes exist in the Quran, and the genealogies created after the rise of Islam, to support the Quran. Some examples are the genealogies regarding Thamud and Nimrod.
There are other serious historical mistakes in the Islamic genealogies regarding the tribe of Thamud. Thamud is an Arabic tribe which appeared in the 8th century B.C., as was attested at the time of the Assyrian King Sargon II through his Inscriptions. Thamud later lost its political power about the 5th century A.D. The Islamic genealogies attempted to back statements made in the Qur’an which placed Thamud and Ad – another Arabian tribe which appeared after Thamud-as tribes which came right after Noah. So they created a father for the tribe of Thamud and named him “Thamud.†Then they claimed he was the grandson of Shem, the son of Noah.[9][ix] All this was created just to fit the narration of the Qur’an.
The Qur’an claims that the tribe of Thamud was the third generation after Noah, ( The Qur'an made the Arabian tribe of Ad to be second generation after Noah's generation; then Thamud as the third generation, See Surah 7:69; 23:31,32;14:8,9) and it was condemned by Allah to be punished by a wind. (The wind was the god who brought judgment in Zoroastrianism. We know this is also an enormous historical mistake. Not only did Thamud not appear until the 8th century B.C., but the official history, as shown by Assyrian inscriptions, demonstrates that Thamud continued to exist during the 7th century B.C. Also, writings by various Greek and Roman geographers who wrote about Arabia, said Thamud continued until the 5th century A.D. as a politically-organized tribe which occupied a large part of northern Arabia. No wind destroyed the tribe, as the Qur’an claims.
This should be enough to convince us, but there’s yet another enormous historical mistake in the Islamic genealogies. This one concerns Nimrod. According to Genesis 10:8-11, Nimrod was the first builder of the old cities of Mesopotamia. He was the son of Cush, the son of Ham, the son of Noah.We can date him to between 5000 and 4500 B.C. Islamic genealogies correctly state that Nimrod was the son of Cush, but incorrectly state that he lived around the time of Abraham.[10]
We urge Muslims to study history, and to compare the facts to what they have been told in the Qur’an and in Islamic tradition. The claims of Mohammed, the Qur’an and Islam are clearly unfounded. Even if such historical errors were accepted by the followers in Mohammed’s time, we now have so much more evidence which proves them in error. How can anyone embrace these enormous mistakes, when a simple study of history demonstrates how wrong they are.
No one has the right to claim he descended from a specific man who lived 2,000 years before him, unless he has written documents which testify to his claim. In Mohammed’s case, those documents simply do not exist. We have no proof that the ancestors of Mohammed were the descendants of Ishmael
I will continue to analyze the Islamic genealogies which began to appear in the 8th century A.D., and which endeavor to connect Mohammed with Ishmael. I already quoted the Hadith of Mohammed, in which he prohibited any genealogy which described him any further back than Nather bin Kinaneh, who lived 17 generations before him. Other Hadith of Mohammed state that he didn’t want to be genealogized prior to Maad معد , which some suggested to be the fourth person prior to Nather bin Kinaneh. The many genealogies which appeared since the 8th century A.D. confirm the same information, that the genealogy of Mohammed is limited to probably 17 generations before him, but certainly not more than 21 ancestors.
Why is this significant in our search for Mohammed’s genealogy? In the first place, Mohammed himself confessed that he didn’t know of any ancestor before his 17th ancestor. Secondly, after the 17th generation, we begin to notice the differences in these genealogies. After Maad bin Adnan, number 21, the genealogies begin to contradict themselves with big differences, reflecting the fact that the authors of such genealogies couldn’t find resources on which to build their genealogies. That’s because Mohammed prohibited his contemporaries from going any further back than his 17th ancestor. Thus, every one fabricated Mohammed’s genealogy differently from the other.
Another interesting feature of their work is that all of the biographers used Arabic-style names of the 8th and 9th centuries A.D., but they applied the names to the generation in which Ishmael lived. As an example, we find a genealogy mentioned by Tabari, in which the author of the genealogy said Nebaioth, the first-born of Ishmael, begot a son under the name of al-Awam العوام , and al-Awam to beget al-Saboh الصابوح. Notice the Arabic names. In the genealogy, designations of al-Awam, and al-Saboh, respectively, follow the names.[11][xi] We don’t find this style even in the inscriptions of North Arabia before the Christian era. Instead, we see these names are of the same style as the Umayyad and Abassid periods, after the 8th and 9th centuries A.D.( the Abassid period began in the year 750 A.D.).
When we return to the genealogy fabricated by Ibn Ishak, on which other Muslim writers built in more recent times, we notice his Arabization of the genealogy. As I stated previously, he listed the son of Nabaioth, first-born of Ishmael, as Yashjub يشجب, his son is Yarob يعرب. Yarob is, in itself, a word derived from the word Arab. Ibn Ishak did this in order to make Ishmael appear to be an Arab. Though we know that the word “Arab†was not known before the 10th century B.C., this style for names like Yarob and Yashjub is characteristic of the 8th century A.D., in which Ibn Ishak lived. A common characteristic to all these genealogies is that they claim Mohammed was descended from Ishmael, and they all give a limited number of ancestors between Mohammed and Ishmael.
There are 2,670 years between Ishmael and Mohammed; a large span of time which cannot be covered with only 40 generations.
Ibn Ishak listed 40 ancestors. He wasn’t aware, when he fabricated his genealogy, that 40 ancestors are not sufficient to cover the great time span between Ishmael and Mohammed. Ishmael lived around 2050 B.C., while Mohammed emigrated to Medina around 620 A.D. Therefore, there are about 2,670 years between Ishmael and Mohammed. How can this great period be covered by only 40 ancestors?
By contrast, the Gospel of Matthew reports the genealogy of Jesus Christ as far back as Abraham. We find 42 ancestors between Abraham and Jesus, though it’s a period of only l,950 years. The genealogy of Mohammed must account for another 720 years.
Another thing to consider is that a Jewish generation is longer than an Arabian generation. Consider the ancestors of Isaac from Abraham to King David. Many of these men fathered their first-born when they were 40 or 50 years old. We see that between the captivity in Babylon in 586 B.C., and the birth of Jesus, there are 14 generations. This shows that the Jewish generation in that period was around 41 years. But when we come to the Arabian generations, we can’t allow 41 years for each generation. Scholars consider an Arabian generation to have been about 20 years, because Arabians married when they were about 17-20 years old, due to weather and their cultural environment.
The Archaeology of Arabia Confirmed the Relative Brevity of an Arabian Generation
Archaeology confirms the lower figures for the generations in Arabia. If we study the series of kings in Arabia, both in northern Arabia and Yemen, we come to verify the shortness of Arabian generations when compared to generations in other places, such as Israel. For example, the series of rulers in Saba and Himyar of Yemen begin with the Karibil A. in the 9th century B.C., and run through Maadikarib III, King of Himyar, who was number 102, the last one in the series. He reigned between 575- 577 A.D.[12][xii] We see 102 generations of kings in a span of about 1,400 years. Remembering that a few of these rulers were brothers of other kings in the same generation, we find between 75 to 80 generations, and we conclude that the average Arabian generation was about 17-20 years.
Considering the shortness of the Arabian generation, let’s suppose that each generation in Mohammed’s genealogy is 20 years. Since Mohammed is separated from Abraham and Ishmael by 2,670 years, there must have been a little over 133 generations between them. When we do the math, we have 2,670 years divided by 20 years, which equals 133 and one-half generations, not 35 or 40, as claimed by Ibn Ishak and the others who fabricated genealogies for the ancestors of Mohammed. We see how unprepared and unwise they were to claim Mohammed is descended from Abraham and his son, Ishmael.
Except for the lineage of Jesus, which was documented by written books of the Bible through the centuries, no other family in history has ever accounted for their ancestors over a period of 2,000 years.
Let’s look at this another way. If we assume that the 21st ancestor of Mohammed is known, and if we make a generation 25 years rather than 20 years, then ancestor number 21 would still be 525 years distant from Mohammed. This means that the 21st ancestor of Mohammed lived between 50-70 A.D. This would make the gap between him and Ishmael about 2,000 years.
Except for the linage of Jesus, no family in history had ever verified their ancestors over a period of 2,000 years. The family of Joseph, who was from the royal lineage of Judah, and the family of Mary, who was from the same tribe, could account for their ancestors as far back as Abraham. Because there have been documented, written books of the Bible in each generation, the facts are verified again and again. They give testimony to the promise God made to Abraham and to Isaac, son of Abraham, which God then confirmed to almost every member of the Messianic genealogy. God’s divine promise accompanied others in the Messianic line, such as Isaac, his son, Jacob, and Jacob’s son, Judah, as it was recorded by Moses in the book of Genesis, the first book of the Bible.
The genealogy continued to be recorded in many other books of the Bible. For example, we see God confirming the continuity of the Messianic line in the book of Ruth through Boaz, one of the ancestors of King David. The promise of God concerning the birth of a divine child as Savior was confirmed to David and his son, Solomon, then to many other kings, until we reach the last king who governed Judah at the time of Babylon’s captivity, around 586 B.C. The confirmation of God’s promise continued after the captivity of Babylon. In fact, God renewed His promise to another ruler in David’s royal line, Zerubbabel, who became governor of Judah around 538 B.C.
Many prophets prophesied God’s incarnation in human form after Zerubbabel was governor. The series of prophesies continue until we reach the prophet Malachi, who wrote the last book of the Old Testament around 436 B.C. The first chapter of Malachi begins with these words:
Behold I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple.
It is clear that the God of the Old Testament, who spoke to Malachi and to all the prophets, was the One who promised to come, announcing the sending of a messenger to prepare the way for Him as a sign of His coming. This messenger was John the Baptist, whom God called in the same generation in which Christ was incarnated, and who testified in John 1:26, 27 concerning Jesus. He said:
I baptize with water, but there stands one among you whom you do not know. It is he who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to untie.
Later, when John was asked by the Jews if He was the Messiah, said in Matthew 3:2 that he was “the voice of one crying in the wilderness.†He was the one who came to prepare the way before the Lord, fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah 40:3. John the Baptist pointed to Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God, and the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
There is a complete continuity of documented records and historical testimonies regarding the Messianic genealogy of Jesus.
The royal lineage continued to be well-known between the time of Malachi and Jesus. In fact, rulers in Judah continued their rule in Jerusalem at the time of the Maccabees during the 2nd century B.C. This means that the period, which was covered only by oral tradition until we reached Mary and Joseph, doesn’t exceed 120-140 years. That was a short time in which families would know about the father of their grandfather who lived 140 years earlier.
When we consider John the Baptist, of whom there is a written testimony, not just in the New Testament, but also in historical literature, such as the writings of Josephus Flavius , the Jewish-Roman historian, we have a complete continuity of documented records and historical testimonies regarding the Messianic genealogy of Jesus.
The absence of any record between Mohammed and Ishmael which would support the Islamic claim that Mohammed is descended from Ishmael.
On the other hand, when we come to the family of Mohammed, whose oldest disputable ancestor was 21 people distant from him, and who lived in Yemen in the first century A.D., how can we connect Mohammed’s 21st ancestor with Ishmael who lived in Sinai 2,000 years before him? No Arabian documents written before Mohammed even allude to such a claim.
Islam also claims that Abraham and Ishmael founded the city of Mecca, but Mecca was not in existence prior to the 4th century A.D. There’s no historical document written during the 2,000 years between Mohammed’s 21st ancestor and the time of Ishmael, which claims the 21st ancestor of Mohammed was a descendent of Ishmael. And there is no credible document written between the time of Mohammed’s 21st ancestor and his own time.
As if this were not enough evidence that Mohammed couldn’t have descended from Ishmael, we have the testimony of thousands of inscriptions, annals and archaeological records which speak about hundreds of rulers in Arabia who belonged to many different tribes, but no inscription or record includes material on any of the ancestors of Mohammed. This can only confirm that Mohammed’s family was an ordinary and unknown family like any other family in Yemen, and that it never ruled in any city in western Arabia, even though Islamic tradition claims it ruled in Mecca.
The Impossibility of the 21st Ancestor of Mohammed Claiming to be Descended from Ishmael
Because Mohammed came from an average Yemeni family, how can his 21st ancestor possess information about ancestors who lived at the time of Abraham? Although printing was invented in the 15th century, and archiving and documentation has since become more organized, and easier, than in previous centuries, none of the families in our generation know the names of their ancestors who lived 1,000 years ago. How, then, could an ordinary man, such as the 21st ancestor of Mohammed, who lived around the 1st century A.D., know anything about an ancestor who lived 2000 years before him?
From Assyrian records dated between the 9th and 7th century B.C., we know that Ishmaelite tribes lived as nomads in Sinai and the Fertile Crescent. But none of these records include the name Ishmael. No inscription shows that they called any person by that name. This demonstrates to us that they didn’t know their lineage from Ishmael. Otherwise, they would certainly have been proud to be his descendants, and they would have recorded Ishmael in each subsequent generation, just as the Israelites recorded Isaac as part of their Israelite religious heritage in every ancient book they wrote.
Because Ishmael received no spiritual call from God, his only historical descendants were the twelve tribes which descended from his sons. In consequent generations, even his sons' descendents forgot about him, including his name, even though the time between Ishmael and these tribes was only about 1,200 years (between the 7th and 9th century B.C.). Since this is the case for the true descendants of Ishmael, how can a man who lived in Yemen, far from where Ishmael lived, conclude he descended from Ishmael who lived 2,000 years before him? If the Ishmaelites themselves were not aware of their ancestry from Ishmael, who would have told the 21st ancestor of Mohammed that he was descended from Ishmael?
There is no proof that Mohammed’s ancestors, number 17 or number 21, ever claimed to be descendants from Ishmael. There’s no written document before Mohammed that make such a claim. Even if such document were to have existed, still this ancestor would have no right to claim descendancy from a man who lived 2,000 years before him, without written documents in each generation to prove his case.
It is clear that the claim of Islam about Mohammed coming from Ishmael progeny is farther from the truth than if I claimed that I came from the line of Julius Cesar who lived 2,000 years before my time. Though I would claim that my 21st ancestor was from Julius Cesar, I have nothing to confirm my claim. Such a claim is impossible to verify by anyone living in our generation. That’s why no one today, even in Rome itself, claims descendancy from Julius Cesar, nor did any Italian who lived 1,000 years ago dare to make such a claim. It’s understood that even 1,000 years without any documented testimony renders the claim ridiculous.
It was a common custom in Arabia at the time of Mohammed for many who claimed to be prophets to claim that they were descended from Biblical figures.
Such claim, if anyone would embrace it, would be considered as transgressing honesty and logic. Yet, there were those people in Arabia, specifically at the time of Mohammed, who knowingly held to the claim that they were descendents of Biblical figures. Men who claimed to be prophets often claimed to descend from known figures in history, or from people mentioned in the Bible. Umayya bin abi al-Salt, a maternal cousin of Mohammed, claimed to be a prophet. He said the Queen of Sheba, who visited Solomon, was his aunt.[13][xiii] He said this to establish that he was from the line of her brother. Also Tubb'a (the Yemeni leader who ruled between A.D. 410 and 435 and occupied Mecca) claimed to be a prophet and claimed that the Queen of Sheba was his aunt.[14][xiv] Throughout history we have had people like Umayya bin Abi al-Salt, who wanted to be prophets over their people. They made their claims because knew that many around them were naive and ignorant and wouldn’t refute their claims.
Although false prophets in Arabia had the audacity to claim they were offspring from a man who lived 1,000 years before them, Mohammed claimed to descend from Ishmael who lived 2,700 years before him, yet without any historical written document. My heart goes out to our Muslims friends who continue to trust their eternal destiny to a claim which is against logic and history.
Mohammed claimed to have ascended to heaven, met Abraham, and learned that he was a true copy of Abraham, so as to convince his followers that he was descended from Abraham.
We saw how Mohammed claimed that Ishmael was his ancestor. He claimed this, even though the time between Mohammed and Ishmael was about 2,700 years, and there were no written documents at any time to support this claim.
But there is more involved than supporting an unhistorical claim. Mohammed connected himself to Abraham by saying he was a physically-true copy of Abraham, because he had ascended to heaven where he encountered many Biblical figures – and among them was Abraham.
He also claimed that heaven has seven layers, copying the idea embraced by many religions and sects of his time, such as Gnosticism, Manicheism and Zoroastrianism. Gnostic literature makes man responsible for each of the sky’s seven layers. Mohammed claimed the same. Mohammed placed Abraham in the sky’s seventh layer,[15][xv] where he ruled over believers who did more works, and performed more religious rites, than the inhabitants of the lower layers.
In order to persuade his followers that he was the offspring of Abraham, Mohammed claimed that he was a true copy of Abraham.
When his followers asked Mohammed what Abraham looked like, he told them that Abraham was a copy of Mohammed himself. He told them:
I did not see a man similar to him like your friend, nor is your friend likened to any person like him.[16][xvi] (By “friend,†Mohammed meant himself.)
Al-Bukhari, the authoritative book of Mohammed’s Hadith, quotes Mohammed as saying, “I am the most likened son to Abraham.â€[17][xvii] Mohammed wanted to persuade his followers that he was the offspring of Abraham, so he claimed that physically he was a copy of Abraham. Isaac did not dare to make such a claim, though he was Abraham’s son, and his mother was Abraham’s step sister. Neither did Jacob, or any of his descendents who were close to Abraham’s time, claim that they were a physical copy of Abraham. How could a man who lived 2,700 years after Abraham make such claim?
"
I noticed that there are a lots of articles about Ishmael not being Muhammad's ancestor, and yet i didn't find any rebuttal.
I'll just post this article and please, lets do efforts to rebute this site and their claim:
"
IS MOHAMMED A DESCENDENT OF ISHMAEL?
By Dr. Rafat Amari
Muslims believe that Mohammed is a descendant of Ishmael. As proof of their position, Muslims refer to genealogies written around 770-775 A.D. by Ibn Ishak.
What he has written is simply not true. Ishmaelite tribes, especially the tribe of Nebaioth from which, according to Ibn Ishak, Mohammed is said to have come, were nomadic tribes who lived in the Sinai and Fertile Crescent deserts. These tribes disappeared after the 7th century B.C.
Mohammed's family was a Sabaean Yemeni family, while the Ishmaelites, who lived in the deserts of the Fertile Crescent, became extinct many centuries before Mohammed's family left Yemen.
Historians say that the family of Mohammed was a family which lived in Saba-Yemen. In the 5th century A.D., Qusayy Bin Kilab, the 8th ancestor of Mohammed, gathered an alliance of many Yemeni families forming Quraish, the tribe from which Mohammed later came. These families only came to occupy Mecca in the 5th century A.D. The city of Mecca was built by the tribe of Khuzaa'h in the 4th century A.D.
Mohammed’s family is not connected to any Ishmaelite tribe because Mohammed’s family didn’t leave Yemen until the 5th century A.D., and that’s about 1,100 years after the Ishmaelites disappeared. Mohammed’s tribe could not have lived in the same locations as the Ishmaelite tribes at any time throughout history.
The genealogy fabricated by Ibn-Ishak contradicts the sayings of Mohammed, who expressed his ignorance about his ancestors prior to his 17th ancestor.
Ibn Ishak was considered by the Muslim scholars of his time as being guilty of forgery and fabricating false genealogies.[1]
Long before Ibn Ishak, Muslims who lived in Mohammed’s own time also fabricated genealogies in an attempt to connect Mohammed to the descendants of Ishmael. Mohammed, himself, rejected all of these false genealogies, and he put limits regarding the genealogy of his ancestors. Regarding Mohammed’s own rejection of the false genealogies, Amru bin al-As wrote:
Mohammed genealogized himself regarding his ancestors until he reached al-Nather bin Kinaneh, then he said, “anyone who claimed otherwise or added further ancestors, has lied.â€[2][ii]
By this, Mohammed confessed that neither he, nor anyone else, knew about his ancestors beyond al-Nather bin Kinaneh. Nather bin Kinaneh is the 17th ancestor in the genealogy which Mohammed recognized as true. Other narrations of the customs, or sayings, of Mohammed, called Hadiths, show Mohammed refused to be genealogized prior to Maad, معدwho some suggested, was the 4th ancestor prior to al-Nather bin Kinaneh.[3][iii]
When we look at the ancestors of Mohammed, it’s reasonable to estimate 30 years for each generation of the 17 ancestors of Mohammed. Therefore, we can conclude that Mohammed knew about the genealogy of his tribe as far back as about 510 years. If we want to add the other four ancestors that Mohammed listed, we would go back 630 years. The truth is, nobody knew beyond such date. How, then, could Ibn Ishak and his followers reliably document a genealogy back to Ishmael, who lived in 2050 B.C.? This gives approximately 2000 years between the 21st ancestor of Mohammed and Ishmael. How could Ibn Ishak claim the Ishmaelites lived in Mecca during this period and give details about their history when Mohammed himself said that nobody knew about his relatives prior to his 17th or 21st ancestor? Mecca was not even in existence during this period, as we have clearly demonstrated. Ibn Ishak’s genealogy contradicts Mohammed’s own claims that he did not know his ancestors farther back than al-Nather bin Kinaneh, the 17th ancestor before himself.
All the genealogies that appeared at the time of Mohammed were considered by Mohammed and his close followers to be false.
Many versions of Hadith of Mohammed coming from the followers of Mohammed all report that Mohammed opposed to be genelogized until Ishmael. All his closest contemporaries and followers considered the genealogies appearing at his time to be false. Among the people who reported Mohammed’s opposition to such genealogies were his wife, Aisheh, and his cousin, Ibn Abbas, one of the most important reporters of Mohammed’s Hadith.[4][iv] Ibn Ishak went against what all these people had said by creating genealogies which connect the ancestors of Mohammed with Ishmael.
Ibn Ishak altered the genealogies listed by Moses in Genesis; he inserted Arabic names from his time and contradicted the history regarding Amalek.
The fabrication went beyond this. The genealogies created by Ibn Ishak and others who came after him inserted Arabic names into the genealogies which we find in Genesis. For example, Ibn Ishak inserted the Arabic name “Ya’rab,†which comes from the word “Arab,†listing him as the son of “ Khahtan.†Ibn Ishak then replaced Khahtan for Joktan, mentioned in the book of Genesis as the son of Eber, the son of Arphaxad, and the third son of Shem, the son of Noah.[5][v] We know that the term “Arab†didn’t exist until the 10th century B.C. How, then, could it be inserted into history shortly following Noah, perhaps around 5500 B.C.?
Ibn Ishak went still farther. He changed the name of Lud, the fourth son of Shem, to Luth. He then made Luth the father of Amalek, who fathered the Amalekites. He also claimed that Amalek and his tribe lived in Mecca, and he claimed that the ancient Egyptians were also descendants of Amalek. He then made Amalek’s original name “Arib,†just to connect him with the Arabs.[6][vi] Indirectly, through these false genealogies, Ibn Ishak claimed that Mecca existed at the time of Noah and his grandson, Lud. This directly contradicts the historical facts we examined before, showing that Mecca didn’t exist until the 4th century A.D.
Amalek is a descendant of Esau, the son of Isaac. Genesis 36:12 states that Timma was a concubine of Eliphaz, the first born of Esau, and that she bore Amalek to Eliphaz. Amalek became the father of the Amalekites, which was an Edomite tribe which originally lived in southern Jordan, but moved to the eastern part of the Sinai, as was attested at the time of Moses. The Amalekites became extinct after the 10th century B.C. There’s no mention of Amalek in any inscription or in the writings of any Greek historian, which would indicate that the tribe lived in central, western or northern Arabia.
Refuting the Claim About Jurhum
Ibn Ishak claimed that the tribe of Jurhum lived in Mecca as far back as the time of Abraham. He also claimed that Jurhum was the grandson of Joktan, the son of Eber. He further claimed that Jurhum’s original name was “Hathrem.â€[7][vii] The significance of the name “Hathrem†is that it is characteristic of Arabic-style names used at the time of Ibn Ishak, which was in the 8th century A.D. The names given in the inscriptions of Yemen and northern Arabia are totally different from the style of the names given in Ibn Ishak’s genealogies, which reflect the names of his generation. It is a fact that no inscription, no Greek or Roman historian, and no geographer who visited Arabia, ever mentioned a tribe called Jurhum. The first mention of Jurhum we find it in a poesy of Ummyya bin Abi al-Salet, the maternal cousin of Mohammed, who also claimed to be a prophet. The poem attributed to Ummyya says “the Lord of Ad and Jurhum†[8][viii]. First of all, the poem most probably was composed after the event of Islam, because we do not have in Jahiliyah pre-Islam any mention about Jurhum. The idea that many of the Jahiliyah poetry were added after Islam is embraced by great scholars such as Tah Hussein, the famous Egyptian scholar. Secondly, for the case of argument, if we want to admit the originality of such verse, we could not build upon it a history that a nation called Jurhum existed in Arabia since the time of Abraham, because Ummyya was contemporary of Mohammed, and he can't be a source of documentation about a nation which would have existed prior to his time by 2700 years. Because there were no archiving methods and no printing like we have today, it’s commonly accepted that tradition can be considered accurate only if it was written within four centuries of the writers. If Jurhum existed as tribe in Arabia, it could have been a small tribe that appeared some time after the Christian era. Since no classical writer mentioned this tribe, if existed, it should have been insignificant. Ummyyia's poems are full of myths: such as his claim that the Queen of Saba, who visited king Solomon was his aunt; he claimed this to justify his claim to the role of prophecy. In addition, Ummyyia had relationship with a Jinn-devil, who used to instruct him, which proves that he was a part of the occult religion of Arabia. If we want to accept this poem as composed by him, how can we rely on poems of such personality to establish history dating back to 2700 years before his time?
Enormous historical mistakes exist in the Quran, and the genealogies created after the rise of Islam, to support the Quran. Some examples are the genealogies regarding Thamud and Nimrod.
There are other serious historical mistakes in the Islamic genealogies regarding the tribe of Thamud. Thamud is an Arabic tribe which appeared in the 8th century B.C., as was attested at the time of the Assyrian King Sargon II through his Inscriptions. Thamud later lost its political power about the 5th century A.D. The Islamic genealogies attempted to back statements made in the Qur’an which placed Thamud and Ad – another Arabian tribe which appeared after Thamud-as tribes which came right after Noah. So they created a father for the tribe of Thamud and named him “Thamud.†Then they claimed he was the grandson of Shem, the son of Noah.[9][ix] All this was created just to fit the narration of the Qur’an.
The Qur’an claims that the tribe of Thamud was the third generation after Noah, ( The Qur'an made the Arabian tribe of Ad to be second generation after Noah's generation; then Thamud as the third generation, See Surah 7:69; 23:31,32;14:8,9) and it was condemned by Allah to be punished by a wind. (The wind was the god who brought judgment in Zoroastrianism. We know this is also an enormous historical mistake. Not only did Thamud not appear until the 8th century B.C., but the official history, as shown by Assyrian inscriptions, demonstrates that Thamud continued to exist during the 7th century B.C. Also, writings by various Greek and Roman geographers who wrote about Arabia, said Thamud continued until the 5th century A.D. as a politically-organized tribe which occupied a large part of northern Arabia. No wind destroyed the tribe, as the Qur’an claims.
This should be enough to convince us, but there’s yet another enormous historical mistake in the Islamic genealogies. This one concerns Nimrod. According to Genesis 10:8-11, Nimrod was the first builder of the old cities of Mesopotamia. He was the son of Cush, the son of Ham, the son of Noah.We can date him to between 5000 and 4500 B.C. Islamic genealogies correctly state that Nimrod was the son of Cush, but incorrectly state that he lived around the time of Abraham.[10]
- This false claim about Nimrod was made to conform to a mistake in the Qur’an, which made Nimrod reign at the time of Abraham. The Qur’an says Nimrod persecuted Abraham and cast him into a fire which did not harm him. We read this in Surah al-Anbiya' 21:51-70 and Surah al-Safat 37:95. The narration of the Qur’an is taken from the Jewish book called Midrash Rabbah, chapter 17.
We urge Muslims to study history, and to compare the facts to what they have been told in the Qur’an and in Islamic tradition. The claims of Mohammed, the Qur’an and Islam are clearly unfounded. Even if such historical errors were accepted by the followers in Mohammed’s time, we now have so much more evidence which proves them in error. How can anyone embrace these enormous mistakes, when a simple study of history demonstrates how wrong they are.
No one has the right to claim he descended from a specific man who lived 2,000 years before him, unless he has written documents which testify to his claim. In Mohammed’s case, those documents simply do not exist. We have no proof that the ancestors of Mohammed were the descendants of Ishmael
I will continue to analyze the Islamic genealogies which began to appear in the 8th century A.D., and which endeavor to connect Mohammed with Ishmael. I already quoted the Hadith of Mohammed, in which he prohibited any genealogy which described him any further back than Nather bin Kinaneh, who lived 17 generations before him. Other Hadith of Mohammed state that he didn’t want to be genealogized prior to Maad معد , which some suggested to be the fourth person prior to Nather bin Kinaneh. The many genealogies which appeared since the 8th century A.D. confirm the same information, that the genealogy of Mohammed is limited to probably 17 generations before him, but certainly not more than 21 ancestors.
Why is this significant in our search for Mohammed’s genealogy? In the first place, Mohammed himself confessed that he didn’t know of any ancestor before his 17th ancestor. Secondly, after the 17th generation, we begin to notice the differences in these genealogies. After Maad bin Adnan, number 21, the genealogies begin to contradict themselves with big differences, reflecting the fact that the authors of such genealogies couldn’t find resources on which to build their genealogies. That’s because Mohammed prohibited his contemporaries from going any further back than his 17th ancestor. Thus, every one fabricated Mohammed’s genealogy differently from the other.
Another interesting feature of their work is that all of the biographers used Arabic-style names of the 8th and 9th centuries A.D., but they applied the names to the generation in which Ishmael lived. As an example, we find a genealogy mentioned by Tabari, in which the author of the genealogy said Nebaioth, the first-born of Ishmael, begot a son under the name of al-Awam العوام , and al-Awam to beget al-Saboh الصابوح. Notice the Arabic names. In the genealogy, designations of al-Awam, and al-Saboh, respectively, follow the names.[11][xi] We don’t find this style even in the inscriptions of North Arabia before the Christian era. Instead, we see these names are of the same style as the Umayyad and Abassid periods, after the 8th and 9th centuries A.D.( the Abassid period began in the year 750 A.D.).
When we return to the genealogy fabricated by Ibn Ishak, on which other Muslim writers built in more recent times, we notice his Arabization of the genealogy. As I stated previously, he listed the son of Nabaioth, first-born of Ishmael, as Yashjub يشجب, his son is Yarob يعرب. Yarob is, in itself, a word derived from the word Arab. Ibn Ishak did this in order to make Ishmael appear to be an Arab. Though we know that the word “Arab†was not known before the 10th century B.C., this style for names like Yarob and Yashjub is characteristic of the 8th century A.D., in which Ibn Ishak lived. A common characteristic to all these genealogies is that they claim Mohammed was descended from Ishmael, and they all give a limited number of ancestors between Mohammed and Ishmael.
There are 2,670 years between Ishmael and Mohammed; a large span of time which cannot be covered with only 40 generations.
Ibn Ishak listed 40 ancestors. He wasn’t aware, when he fabricated his genealogy, that 40 ancestors are not sufficient to cover the great time span between Ishmael and Mohammed. Ishmael lived around 2050 B.C., while Mohammed emigrated to Medina around 620 A.D. Therefore, there are about 2,670 years between Ishmael and Mohammed. How can this great period be covered by only 40 ancestors?
By contrast, the Gospel of Matthew reports the genealogy of Jesus Christ as far back as Abraham. We find 42 ancestors between Abraham and Jesus, though it’s a period of only l,950 years. The genealogy of Mohammed must account for another 720 years.
Another thing to consider is that a Jewish generation is longer than an Arabian generation. Consider the ancestors of Isaac from Abraham to King David. Many of these men fathered their first-born when they were 40 or 50 years old. We see that between the captivity in Babylon in 586 B.C., and the birth of Jesus, there are 14 generations. This shows that the Jewish generation in that period was around 41 years. But when we come to the Arabian generations, we can’t allow 41 years for each generation. Scholars consider an Arabian generation to have been about 20 years, because Arabians married when they were about 17-20 years old, due to weather and their cultural environment.
The Archaeology of Arabia Confirmed the Relative Brevity of an Arabian Generation
Archaeology confirms the lower figures for the generations in Arabia. If we study the series of kings in Arabia, both in northern Arabia and Yemen, we come to verify the shortness of Arabian generations when compared to generations in other places, such as Israel. For example, the series of rulers in Saba and Himyar of Yemen begin with the Karibil A. in the 9th century B.C., and run through Maadikarib III, King of Himyar, who was number 102, the last one in the series. He reigned between 575- 577 A.D.[12][xii] We see 102 generations of kings in a span of about 1,400 years. Remembering that a few of these rulers were brothers of other kings in the same generation, we find between 75 to 80 generations, and we conclude that the average Arabian generation was about 17-20 years.
Considering the shortness of the Arabian generation, let’s suppose that each generation in Mohammed’s genealogy is 20 years. Since Mohammed is separated from Abraham and Ishmael by 2,670 years, there must have been a little over 133 generations between them. When we do the math, we have 2,670 years divided by 20 years, which equals 133 and one-half generations, not 35 or 40, as claimed by Ibn Ishak and the others who fabricated genealogies for the ancestors of Mohammed. We see how unprepared and unwise they were to claim Mohammed is descended from Abraham and his son, Ishmael.
Except for the lineage of Jesus, which was documented by written books of the Bible through the centuries, no other family in history has ever accounted for their ancestors over a period of 2,000 years.
Let’s look at this another way. If we assume that the 21st ancestor of Mohammed is known, and if we make a generation 25 years rather than 20 years, then ancestor number 21 would still be 525 years distant from Mohammed. This means that the 21st ancestor of Mohammed lived between 50-70 A.D. This would make the gap between him and Ishmael about 2,000 years.
Except for the linage of Jesus, no family in history had ever verified their ancestors over a period of 2,000 years. The family of Joseph, who was from the royal lineage of Judah, and the family of Mary, who was from the same tribe, could account for their ancestors as far back as Abraham. Because there have been documented, written books of the Bible in each generation, the facts are verified again and again. They give testimony to the promise God made to Abraham and to Isaac, son of Abraham, which God then confirmed to almost every member of the Messianic genealogy. God’s divine promise accompanied others in the Messianic line, such as Isaac, his son, Jacob, and Jacob’s son, Judah, as it was recorded by Moses in the book of Genesis, the first book of the Bible.
The genealogy continued to be recorded in many other books of the Bible. For example, we see God confirming the continuity of the Messianic line in the book of Ruth through Boaz, one of the ancestors of King David. The promise of God concerning the birth of a divine child as Savior was confirmed to David and his son, Solomon, then to many other kings, until we reach the last king who governed Judah at the time of Babylon’s captivity, around 586 B.C. The confirmation of God’s promise continued after the captivity of Babylon. In fact, God renewed His promise to another ruler in David’s royal line, Zerubbabel, who became governor of Judah around 538 B.C.
Many prophets prophesied God’s incarnation in human form after Zerubbabel was governor. The series of prophesies continue until we reach the prophet Malachi, who wrote the last book of the Old Testament around 436 B.C. The first chapter of Malachi begins with these words:
Behold I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple.
It is clear that the God of the Old Testament, who spoke to Malachi and to all the prophets, was the One who promised to come, announcing the sending of a messenger to prepare the way for Him as a sign of His coming. This messenger was John the Baptist, whom God called in the same generation in which Christ was incarnated, and who testified in John 1:26, 27 concerning Jesus. He said:
I baptize with water, but there stands one among you whom you do not know. It is he who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to untie.
Later, when John was asked by the Jews if He was the Messiah, said in Matthew 3:2 that he was “the voice of one crying in the wilderness.†He was the one who came to prepare the way before the Lord, fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah 40:3. John the Baptist pointed to Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God, and the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
There is a complete continuity of documented records and historical testimonies regarding the Messianic genealogy of Jesus.
The royal lineage continued to be well-known between the time of Malachi and Jesus. In fact, rulers in Judah continued their rule in Jerusalem at the time of the Maccabees during the 2nd century B.C. This means that the period, which was covered only by oral tradition until we reached Mary and Joseph, doesn’t exceed 120-140 years. That was a short time in which families would know about the father of their grandfather who lived 140 years earlier.
When we consider John the Baptist, of whom there is a written testimony, not just in the New Testament, but also in historical literature, such as the writings of Josephus Flavius , the Jewish-Roman historian, we have a complete continuity of documented records and historical testimonies regarding the Messianic genealogy of Jesus.
The absence of any record between Mohammed and Ishmael which would support the Islamic claim that Mohammed is descended from Ishmael.
On the other hand, when we come to the family of Mohammed, whose oldest disputable ancestor was 21 people distant from him, and who lived in Yemen in the first century A.D., how can we connect Mohammed’s 21st ancestor with Ishmael who lived in Sinai 2,000 years before him? No Arabian documents written before Mohammed even allude to such a claim.
Islam also claims that Abraham and Ishmael founded the city of Mecca, but Mecca was not in existence prior to the 4th century A.D. There’s no historical document written during the 2,000 years between Mohammed’s 21st ancestor and the time of Ishmael, which claims the 21st ancestor of Mohammed was a descendent of Ishmael. And there is no credible document written between the time of Mohammed’s 21st ancestor and his own time.
As if this were not enough evidence that Mohammed couldn’t have descended from Ishmael, we have the testimony of thousands of inscriptions, annals and archaeological records which speak about hundreds of rulers in Arabia who belonged to many different tribes, but no inscription or record includes material on any of the ancestors of Mohammed. This can only confirm that Mohammed’s family was an ordinary and unknown family like any other family in Yemen, and that it never ruled in any city in western Arabia, even though Islamic tradition claims it ruled in Mecca.
The Impossibility of the 21st Ancestor of Mohammed Claiming to be Descended from Ishmael
Because Mohammed came from an average Yemeni family, how can his 21st ancestor possess information about ancestors who lived at the time of Abraham? Although printing was invented in the 15th century, and archiving and documentation has since become more organized, and easier, than in previous centuries, none of the families in our generation know the names of their ancestors who lived 1,000 years ago. How, then, could an ordinary man, such as the 21st ancestor of Mohammed, who lived around the 1st century A.D., know anything about an ancestor who lived 2000 years before him?
From Assyrian records dated between the 9th and 7th century B.C., we know that Ishmaelite tribes lived as nomads in Sinai and the Fertile Crescent. But none of these records include the name Ishmael. No inscription shows that they called any person by that name. This demonstrates to us that they didn’t know their lineage from Ishmael. Otherwise, they would certainly have been proud to be his descendants, and they would have recorded Ishmael in each subsequent generation, just as the Israelites recorded Isaac as part of their Israelite religious heritage in every ancient book they wrote.
Because Ishmael received no spiritual call from God, his only historical descendants were the twelve tribes which descended from his sons. In consequent generations, even his sons' descendents forgot about him, including his name, even though the time between Ishmael and these tribes was only about 1,200 years (between the 7th and 9th century B.C.). Since this is the case for the true descendants of Ishmael, how can a man who lived in Yemen, far from where Ishmael lived, conclude he descended from Ishmael who lived 2,000 years before him? If the Ishmaelites themselves were not aware of their ancestry from Ishmael, who would have told the 21st ancestor of Mohammed that he was descended from Ishmael?
There is no proof that Mohammed’s ancestors, number 17 or number 21, ever claimed to be descendants from Ishmael. There’s no written document before Mohammed that make such a claim. Even if such document were to have existed, still this ancestor would have no right to claim descendancy from a man who lived 2,000 years before him, without written documents in each generation to prove his case.
It is clear that the claim of Islam about Mohammed coming from Ishmael progeny is farther from the truth than if I claimed that I came from the line of Julius Cesar who lived 2,000 years before my time. Though I would claim that my 21st ancestor was from Julius Cesar, I have nothing to confirm my claim. Such a claim is impossible to verify by anyone living in our generation. That’s why no one today, even in Rome itself, claims descendancy from Julius Cesar, nor did any Italian who lived 1,000 years ago dare to make such a claim. It’s understood that even 1,000 years without any documented testimony renders the claim ridiculous.
It was a common custom in Arabia at the time of Mohammed for many who claimed to be prophets to claim that they were descended from Biblical figures.
Such claim, if anyone would embrace it, would be considered as transgressing honesty and logic. Yet, there were those people in Arabia, specifically at the time of Mohammed, who knowingly held to the claim that they were descendents of Biblical figures. Men who claimed to be prophets often claimed to descend from known figures in history, or from people mentioned in the Bible. Umayya bin abi al-Salt, a maternal cousin of Mohammed, claimed to be a prophet. He said the Queen of Sheba, who visited Solomon, was his aunt.[13][xiii] He said this to establish that he was from the line of her brother. Also Tubb'a (the Yemeni leader who ruled between A.D. 410 and 435 and occupied Mecca) claimed to be a prophet and claimed that the Queen of Sheba was his aunt.[14][xiv] Throughout history we have had people like Umayya bin Abi al-Salt, who wanted to be prophets over their people. They made their claims because knew that many around them were naive and ignorant and wouldn’t refute their claims.
Although false prophets in Arabia had the audacity to claim they were offspring from a man who lived 1,000 years before them, Mohammed claimed to descend from Ishmael who lived 2,700 years before him, yet without any historical written document. My heart goes out to our Muslims friends who continue to trust their eternal destiny to a claim which is against logic and history.
Mohammed claimed to have ascended to heaven, met Abraham, and learned that he was a true copy of Abraham, so as to convince his followers that he was descended from Abraham.
We saw how Mohammed claimed that Ishmael was his ancestor. He claimed this, even though the time between Mohammed and Ishmael was about 2,700 years, and there were no written documents at any time to support this claim.
But there is more involved than supporting an unhistorical claim. Mohammed connected himself to Abraham by saying he was a physically-true copy of Abraham, because he had ascended to heaven where he encountered many Biblical figures – and among them was Abraham.
He also claimed that heaven has seven layers, copying the idea embraced by many religions and sects of his time, such as Gnosticism, Manicheism and Zoroastrianism. Gnostic literature makes man responsible for each of the sky’s seven layers. Mohammed claimed the same. Mohammed placed Abraham in the sky’s seventh layer,[15][xv] where he ruled over believers who did more works, and performed more religious rites, than the inhabitants of the lower layers.
In order to persuade his followers that he was the offspring of Abraham, Mohammed claimed that he was a true copy of Abraham.
When his followers asked Mohammed what Abraham looked like, he told them that Abraham was a copy of Mohammed himself. He told them:
I did not see a man similar to him like your friend, nor is your friend likened to any person like him.[16][xvi] (By “friend,†Mohammed meant himself.)
Al-Bukhari, the authoritative book of Mohammed’s Hadith, quotes Mohammed as saying, “I am the most likened son to Abraham.â€[17][xvii] Mohammed wanted to persuade his followers that he was the offspring of Abraham, so he claimed that physically he was a copy of Abraham. Isaac did not dare to make such a claim, though he was Abraham’s son, and his mother was Abraham’s step sister. Neither did Jacob, or any of his descendents who were close to Abraham’s time, claim that they were a physical copy of Abraham. How could a man who lived 2,700 years after Abraham make such claim?
"
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GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Re: IS KA'BA AN ASTEROID ?
« on: June 24, 2013, 02:15:16 PM »I've been watching your posts really carefullyYeah but Simonsen believed that because of the Wabar craters, who were believed to have been the result of meteorite impact 6000 years ago, but in 2004, those same craters were redated to 200-300 years....
Short answer: yes
You really need to research every fact you read on the internet regarding Islam.
That's just the way it is.
According to Elsebeth Thomsen of the University of Copenhagen, it fell as a meteorite 6,000 years ago. In case you haven't been doing your homework, 6,000 years is the time of Abraham, as calculated by piecing together the bits, well, you'd have to read this:
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/amen/a/122710-CW-Archaeological-Evidence-About-The-Story-Of-Abraham-In-The-Bible.htm
(New Light on the Origin of the Holy Black Stone of the Ka'ba. Author: Thomsen, E. Journal: Meteoritics, volume 15, number 1, page 87)
""Stars" falling from the skies have been known since ancient times; rarely, stones are found that were tied to these "shooting stars". One such rock has been venerated by Islam (in its encased shrine in Mecca) for more than 1300 years. By the 19th Century, meteorites were identified correctly as samples from other parts of the Solar System. They are part of the nearly 500 tons of extraterrestrial rock material that reaches and enters the atmosphere each day. Most of that material is burned up by friction from the high speed of entry but meteoric dust can remain in the air and a very few individual blocks of material survive this passage to fall in the sea or on the ground as meteorites."
http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect19/Sect19_2.html
"The second city of Saudi Arabia is Mecca which contains the holiest shrine in Islam, a great plaza with a rectangular structure containing a meteorite that is considered to have fallen into the Muslim world directly from Heaven. Devout Muslims make the Hajj, a pilgrimage to this shrine required at least once in a lifetime. Here it is as seen in a Quickbird image:"
http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect4/Sect4_4.html
Ande the link you gave about the historical Abraham suggests that he lived 2000 years before Christ (PBUH). (At the beginning it says that it is believed that Abraham lived 5-6 centuries before Christ but then, speaking about new evidence the dating changes)
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GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Re: Were the first homosexuals the people of Lot according to the Quran ? Please hel
« on: June 16, 2013, 12:02:40 AM »ASSALAMUALYKUM,Hi, thank you for the answer (all of you)
Brother, I think I got the answer. Brother, you need to understand one thing, we don't know, HOW MANY YEARS AGO LUT(AS) LIVED? Do we? NO. If the claimant who claims that Quran is false, and knows how many years ago LUT(AS) lived, then I think he should have become the world's number one historian. Not even the Historians could tell how many years ago he lived. If you want ,you can search it on Google also. You won't find any article which suggest, how many years ago he lived. So, how Wiki Islam came to know Prophet Lut's living period, which the historians couldn't even tell?But it's sure he lived before ISA(AS). Brother beaware of the sites like Wiki Islam, Answering Islam, Islam Watch, Understanding Islam, Jihad Watch etc. They will mislead you anyway.They are very smart. Yes visit but after having sufficient knowledge in QURAN,HADITH,ARABIC LANGUAGE,HISTORY,SCIENCE AND MATHEMATICS. Then you will be able to understand their trick. As Islam is the true religion it has the highest number of enemies. Listen we are alone only ALLAH is with us. Have you ever seen the other countries coming for help when Muslim countries fall in trouble?
TAKE CARE
I was thinkng about it, and maybe it was a semitic way to say what prophet Lut (PBUH) said.....I know that at that time they use to exagerate things to amplify the gravity of the action, so by saying "that no one had done before" was used by the prophet (note that it's the prophet that says it) to exagerate their evil actions.
That's a posible explanation obviously..
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GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Re: Were the first homosexuals the people of Lot according to the Quran ? Please hel
« on: June 14, 2013, 04:06:05 PM »Brother visit,My dear brother thank you.....and the thing about Wudhu is the exact thing that happens to me, it's incredible
http://www.islamicity.com/science/QuranAndScience/destruction/GeneratedFilesnoframe/ThePeopleofLutandTheCitywhichwasTurnedUpsideDown.htm
And don't visit anti Islamic sites before having sufficient knowledge on QURAN,ARABIC LANGUAGE,HADITH,SCIENCE and HISTORY. If you don't gain knowledge in these subjects those JEWS,Kafirs,Atheists,MUSHRIKHS will be able deceive you easily.
PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE BY BROTHER MAHIR,
[ I am having doubts, evil thoughts and such, WHY?
By Mahir
1- Explaining what you are experiencing
2- Shaytan, the one with a mission, your biggest enemy!
3- Stay away from Haram
4- I’m having the MOST evil thoughts, not only bad thoughts, BUT REALLY evil one’s, I’m losing hope!!
5- What about the Christians and Jews, why are they not suffering from this?
6- To make your iman high Insha’Allah
7- How to solve it? I want it to end!!
8- Do not lose hope in Allahs mercy and forgiveness
9- Conclusion
Explaining what you are experiencing
First of all, this is completely normal, Shaytan is causing these doubts and evil thoughts, if you carefully study Surat an Nas (Chapter 114 of the Qur’an) you will understand the whole notion of Waswasa (Satanic Whispers)
114: 1. Say: I seek refuge with the Lord and Cherisher of Mankind
114: 2. The King (or Ruler) of Mankind
114: 3. The god of Mankind
114: 4. From the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil), who withdraws (after his whisper)
114: 5. who whispers into the hearts of Mankind
114: 6. Among Jinns and among men.
In verse (4), we see that Jinns (Unseen creatures) whisper in the hearts of people, the point to note in this verse is that they whisper, BUT THEY ARE UNSEEN, that’s why this is bothering you, you seem to think it is you, but its not.
You should never ever believe that it is your own thought unless you are 100% sure that it’s your own!
How do we know that it’s not our own thoughts? Answer: You dislike it, you want it to go away, etc!
“The Shaytaan comes to any one of you and says, ‘Who created such and such? Who created such and such?’ until he says, ‘Who created your Lord?’ If that happens to you, seek refuge with Allaah and give up these thoughts.†Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 3277
According to this narration, Muhammad (On whom be peace) told us that Shaytan first whispers usual things (Such as â€Who created this treeâ€), and in the end, he asks you a Shirk question.
Muhammad’s (pbuh) command was to “Give up these thoughtsâ€, so we should strive to give up these thoughts, he taught us 2 important things through this hadith:
1 – To turn to Allaah and seek His protection, and to beseech Him, for He is the most Generous:
“And if an evil whisper comes to you from Shaytaan (Satan), then seek refuge with Allaahâ€
[al-A’raaf 7:200 – interpretation of the meaning]
2 – To put a stop to this matter and turn away from it, and to keep ourselves busy with other, useful things.
Even some of the companions suffered of this disease, they asked Muhammed (pbuh) about it and Muhammad (pbuh) said something that will amaze you:
In Saheeh Muslim it is narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “Some of the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to him and said, ‘We find in our hearts things that none of us dares utter.’ He said, ‘Do you really find that?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ He (Muhammad) said, ‘That is clear faith.’†(2/153).
So one should not believe that he is the first Muslim to get these evil thoughts!
According to this hadith, if you get thoughts you do not dare to utter, YOU HAVE CLEAR FAITH!
One has to understand why it’s clear faith, scholars have stated that it’s because one doesn’t dare to utter it, the rejecting of the thought, etc!
If you’re having these Waswasa (Satanic whispers), ask yourself, WHY are YOU having them and why not a bad Muslim? Why you? You are such a good Muslim, praying 5 times and even more, fasting, giving charity, reading Qur’an, etc, Why you?
Answer: Imagine a thief, would a thief break into a house without gold or a house with gold?
Similarly, Shaytan breaks into the heart and mind of a person that possess Iman (Faith)!
As for the unbeliever, Shaytan leaves him alone to wander in the darkness, Shaytan knows very well that this man (Unbeliever) is already messed up!
Ibn Abbas (Allah have mercy on him) narrates that a Companion came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and asked: “Sometimes I experience such thoughts that I would rather be reduced to charcoal than get them on my lips†(meaning that to speak of these thoughts was worse than burning in fire, m). The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “All praise is to Allah who restricted the devil’s designs to mere evil promptingsâ€. (Sunan Abu Dawud,)
We have to keep in mind, IT IS ALL SHAYTANS WHISPERINGS.
You have to know that it is Shaytan otherwise he is slowly winning this battle, you have to know 100% that it is Shaytan, not 50%,,,, but 1 0 0 %!!!
Shaytan, the one with a mission, your biggest enemy!
To overcome Shaytan, you have to know that he is your biggest enemy, not your second biggest, but your B I G G E S T!!!!!!
“The Shaytaan said to the Lord of Glory: ‘By Your Glory O Lord, I will keep trying to misguide Your slaves so long as their souls are in their bodies.’ The Lord said, ‘By My Glory and Majesty, I will continue to forgive them so long as they ask My forgiveness.’†Narrated by Ahmad in al-Musnad and classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 2/32
In this hadith, we see that Shaytan will never give up trying to misguide us, but Allah (The giver of mercy, the merciful) will neither stop forgiving us if we ask his forgiveness, that is, as long as our souls are in our bodies!
Shaytan will attack us when we wake up for Fajr, during Wudhu, DURING PRAYER, when sitting at a gathering, and many other occasions!
As for Wudhu (Ablution): He (Shaytan) will come to the worshiper and say “Surely, you forgot to make the intention†or “Indeed, you forgot to wash your right hand†or “look at yourself, you are not making it clean enough†and so on!
The solution to this is to make a prayer before entering the bathroom, say “I seek refuge in Allah away from the female and male Jins and the accursed Shaytanâ€
As for Fajr: Shaytan will try to make you sleep even though you KNOW very well that you have to wake up to pray, he got three knots around you, 1. Preventing you to wake up, 2. Preventing you to make proper wudhu, 3 preventing you to pray!
If you do all of these 3 things, he (Shaytan) has lost!
As for prayer: Shaytan will make you pray faster, he will make you think of things while reciting the Qur’an to distract you from the connection between you and Allah, he will make you play with your toes or fingers, he will make you doubt about how many Raqats you have made, he will make you think of VERY evil things etc!
The solution to this is to say “Audhu Billahi Mini Shaytan Irajeem†and spit (dry) 3 times to the left!
As for sitting in a gathering: Shaytan will whisper “Look at that woman†and such!
The solution to this is to seek refuge in Allah away from Satan the accursed!
Or to say “Amantu Billahi wa rasolihi†3 times which means “I believe in Allah and his messengerâ€
Stay away from Haram
To overcome Shaytan, you have to stay away from bad things, for example watching pornographic movies (May God forbid), looking at women for no reason, to much eye contact with women that are not your mahram (Family), to stay away from Haram foods, drinks, TV shows, etc.
Shaytan will always encourage you and say “Come on man, to watch women is completely normal and natural, I mean, look at the Christians, they are constantly staring at women without losing their faith†or “Come on man, ONE pornographic movie won’t kill you or send you to hell†I’m NOT joking, this is his filthy tactics!
I’m having the MOST evil thoughts, not only bad thoughts, BUT REALLY evil one’s, I’m losing hope!!
Why would you lose hope?
Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said:
“Verily Allah forgives my Ummah for the evil thoughts that occur in their hearts until they don’t say it verbally or act upon itâ€. (Sahih al-Bukhari & Sahih Muslim).
Just remind yourself, unless you don’t say it verbally or act upon it, Allah is most forgiving and WILL forgive you (InshAllah)
Not to verbally say it: Such as; “Lately I feel Islam is not the right way†or “What if there are several Gods†etc, Naudhubillah, May God protect us and never allow us to have these thoughts from Shaytan!
Not to act upon it: Such as missing prayers because of the thoughts, making a thought into a reality such as killing a person, beating your wife severely, raping, leaving Islam, etc!
What about the Christians and Jews, why are they not suffering from this?
It was once said “The people of the book claim that they do not get satanic whispersâ€
The reply was “They are truthful (about their claim), what would Shaytan want to do in an empty houseâ€
How to make your iman (Faith) high Insha’Allah
1. Ask Allah to raise your iman (faith)
2. Please visit:
The scientific miracles of the Qur’an:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
Go to www.youtube.com and search:
“The Qur’an and the Bible in the light of science†Watch this entire debate, indeed Iman lifting!
3. Start reading books and hang around helpful and knowledgeable Muslim brothers/sisters.
4. Read books about the prophecies of Muhammad (Pbuh) in the Bible and other religions!
5. Make “Remembrance of Allah†and read the Qur’an daily!
6. Ponder upon the verses of the Qur’an
7. Do good deeds, and I think this is the best advice.
Etc!
How to solve it? I want it to end!!
You have to ask Allah to guide you and to increase your iman, to protect you from all the evil out there, from Jinns to Shaytan, from Shaytan to Shayateen, from Shayateen to Mankind-Shaytans and so on!
Prayers (du3a’s) are very helpful, trust me!
Recommended prayer (Du3a):
“Rabbi inni a’uzu bika min hamazat ashayatin wa a’uzu bika rabbi an yahdurunâ€
Translation: “O my Lord! I seek your protection from the instigations of devils and I also seek your protection from that they (ever) come to meâ€
There are literally hundreds of prayers and things one can say to cause the whispering to an end, for more information please visit:
http://www.imanway.com/en/showthread.php?t=4509
Read the last three Chapters of the Qur’an, loud in Arabic and the translation as well (This is called the three Quls), read Chapter 2 of the Qur’an loudly or simply play it on the radio or PC!
Read Ayat al kursi after every prayer, learn it, believe it and sleep, walk, run, eat etc with it in your mind!
Keep in mind that it is Shaytans whisperers as I said, and this will InshAllah help you to calm you down!
Do not lose hope in Allah’s mercy and forgiveness
“And whoever does a wrong or wrongs himself, but then seeks forgiveness from Allah, he will find Allah forgiving and merciful.†(Surat an-Nisaa 4:110)
Hadith Qudsi:
"O son of Adam, as long as you call upon Me and put your hope in Me, I have forgiven you for what you have done and I do not mind. O son of Adam, if your sins were to reach the clouds of the sky and then you would seek My forgiveness, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, if you were to come to Me with sins that are close to filling the earth and then you would meet Me without ascribing any partners with Me, I would certainly bring to you forgiveness close to filling it."
Say: O My servants who have transgressed against their own souls, despair not of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surah az-Zumar 39:53)
And invoke Him in fear and aspiration (of hope). Indeed, the mercy of Allah is near to those who do good. Surat al-Araaf 7:56:
Indeed, no one despairs of relief from Allah except the disbelieving people. (Surah Yusuf 12:87)
Know that Allah is severe in punishment and that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (Surat al-Maaidah 5:98)
Call out to Him with fear and hope. (Surat al-Araaf 7:56)
And whoever does a wrong or wrongs himself, but then seeks forgiveness from Allah, he will find Allah forgiving and merciful. (Surat an-Nisaa 4:110)
And seek Allah’s forgiveness. Certainly, Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Surat al-Muzzammil 73:20)
Lo! Allah is a Lord of Kindness to mankind, but most of mankind give not thanks. (Surat al-Baqarah 2:143)
Will they not repent to Allah and ask His forgiveness? For Allah is the Forgiving, the Merciful. (Surat al-Maaidah 5:74)
And who can forgive sins except Allah? (Surah Ali Imran 3:135)
Say: Shall I not inform you of things far better than those (things of this world)? For the pious, there are gardens with their Lord, wherein rivers flow. Therein (is their) eternal home and pure wives. And Allah will be pleased with them. And Allah is Seer of the slaves. Those who say, Our Lord! We have indeed believed, so forgive us our sins and save us from the punishment of the Fire. They are those who are patient, those who are true and obedient with sincere devotion in worship to Allah. Those who spend (in charity) and those who pray and beg for Allahs forgiveness in the last hours of the night. (Surah Ali Imran 3:15-17)
And those who, when they commit a lewd act or wrong themselves with evil, remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their sins and who forgives sins except Allah? And they do not persist in what (wrong) they were doing while they knew it. For such, the reward is forgiveness from their Lord and Gardens with rivers flowing through, wherein they shall abide forever. How excellent is the reward of the doers (of good)! (Surah Ali Imran 3:135-136)
Conclusion:
This article would be a couple of miles long if we were to explain the forgiveness and mercy of Allah, but to sum it up, DO NOT lose hope, and remember that Allah always helps those who want help and those whom make sincere Tauba (Repentance).
It will get over InshAllah, remember, you are NOT alone, there are literally millions of people experiencing the exact same thing you are experiencing, this is normal and will get over (With the will of Allah) off course!
The best cure for it is the Qur’an and the prayers according to many former affected brothers and sisters, but in my opinion, the best Iman raising things are; The Qur’an, the prayers AND lectures, debates and shows by Zakir Naik and Ahmad Deedat!
May Allah help those whom are affected by this disease, may he cure them!
Ameen!]
voices in my head telling me all those kind of things.
7
GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Re: Were the first homosexuals the people of Lot according to the Quran ? Please hel
« on: June 14, 2013, 03:59:31 PM »Please post the Ayah and Surah number of the Quran where it says that the people of lut were first to experience homo sexuality. And how did the owner of Wiki Islam know, when did Lut(A.S.) live?Allah says: (And (remember) Lût (Lot), when he said to his people: "Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Âlamîn (mankind and jinn)?) No doubt, you pursue men with [wanton] lust instead of [approaching] women. Certainly, you are a transgressing people.(Sûrat Al-A‘râf-verse 80).
So here we see that before the people of Lut, there were no homosexuals...historically there are homosexuals even in the prehistoric humans so I don't know, I'm confused.. And the sin in question is homosexuality because the verse continues speaking about pursuing men instead of women.
I'm a Muslim that prays, and tries to learn every day more about his religion, studying the 3 religions I've come to learn that Islam is the most logic and truthful one, so now I just want to delete these kind of so called "errors" from my mind.
8
GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Were the first homosexuals the people of Lot according to the Quran ? Please hel
« on: June 14, 2013, 01:18:52 AM »
"The story of Lot (لوط, Lūṭ) from the Hebrew Bible, is also to be found in the Qur'an, albeit retold with a few differences. Amongst other things, the Qur'anic rendition links the destruction of Sodom specifically to the homosexual activities of its inhabitants. This is one of the many stories from the Qur'an which openly denies science and history, and by doing so, it proves the author of those verses was ignorant of reality and thus proves the verses were not divinely revealed. Take for instance, the Qur'an's claim that the People of Lot were the first to experience homosexuality. This is purely a myth. Homosexuality has been recorded in ancient cultures far before the time of Lot and Abraham (1948–2123 BC). For example the ancient Egyptians who existed 6000 years BC. Not to mention the Chinese and Indian cultures which existed 7000 years BC. There are many recorded tales which portray homosexuality, such as the story between Seth and Horus. Scientifically, historically and morally, this Qur'anic story is absurd."
Taken from wiki islam, can please someone find a rebuttal, this is really confusing me , thanks :S
thank you
Taken from wiki islam, can please someone find a rebuttal, this is really confusing me , thanks :S
thank you
9
GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Re: Looking for a rebuttal! Archeology, our holy book the Quran
« on: May 15, 2013, 04:29:47 PM »
thx brother, looking forward to read your next posts
10
GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Looking for a rebuttal! Archeology, our holy book the Quran
« on: May 14, 2013, 07:39:33 PM »
"Does archaeology support the Qur'an?
Muslims are adamant in asserting that the Quran is the final true word of God. However the historical reliability of Islam has been challenged by contemporary scholarship. Manuscript, documentary and archaeological evidence all fail to confirm many of the claims of Islam. Let's explore the mounting case against Islam from external documentary sources and modern archaeology.
Non-Muslim Sources
The Jews
The Quran implies that Muhammad severed his relationship with the Jews in 624 AD, soon after the Hijra (migration to Mecca). At that time the direction of prayer, the Qibla, was moved from Jerusalem to Mecca (Sura 2:144, 149-150).
However, non-Muslim sources, the Doctrina Iacobi and the Armenian Chronicle of 660 AD, maintain the Arabs and the Jews were allies as late as 640 AD, during the conquest of Palestine. Muhammad established a community of Ishmaelites and Jews based on their common birthright to the Holy Land. This relationship endured at least 15 years beyond the qur'anic date.
Mecca
According to the Quran, Mecca was the first and most important city in the world. Adam placed the black stone in the original Kaba (sanctuary) there, while Abraham and Ishmael rebuilt the Meccan Kaba centuries later (Sura 2:125-127). Mecca was allegedly the centre of Arabian trading routes before Muhammads time.
Yet there is no archeological corroboration for this. Such a great ancient city would surely have received a mention in ancient history. However, the earliest reference to Mecca as a city is in the Continuato Byzantia Arabica, an 8th century document. Mecca is certainly not on the natural overland trade routes- it is a barren valley requiring a one hundred mile detour. Moreover, there was only maritime Graeco-Roman trade with India after the first century, controlled by the Ethiopian Red Sea port Adulis, not by the Arabs. If Mecca was not even a viable city, let alone a great commercial centre until after Muhammads time, the Quran is seriously in doubt.
Archaeology
Qibla
According to the Quran, the direction of prayer (Qibla) was canonized towards Mecca for all Muslims circa 624 AD, two years after the Hijra (see Sura 2:144, 149-50). Yet the earliest archaeological evidence from mosques built at the beginning of the 8th century suggests their sanctuary was located a long way north of Mecca, closer to the vicinity of Jerusalem.
The Qibla of the first mosque in Kufa, Iraq, constructed in 670 AD, pointed west instead of due south. Likewise, floor plans from two later Umayyad (650-750 AD) mosques in Iraq, demonstrate their Qiblas were oriented too far north. The Wasit mosque is off by 33 degrees, the Baghdad mosque by 30 degrees. The Amr b. al As mosque near Cairo, again pointed too far north and had to be corrected under a later governor.
Jacob of Odessa, a Christian writer and traveller, was a contemporary eye-witness writing in Egypt around 705 AD. His letter in the British Museum maintains the Mahgraye (Greek term for Arabs) in Egypt prayed facing east, towards their Kaba, the place of their patriarchal origin- in other words towards Palestine, not Mecca.
Thus the evidence points to a sanctuary located not in Mecca, but in northern Arabia or even Jerusalem, until the early 8th century. It cannot be that the early Muslims wrongly estimated the direction of Mecca. They were desert traders and caravaners, adept at travelling by the stars. How else did they perform the obligatory Hajj, which was also canonized at this time? There is a serious discrepancy between the Quran and modern archaeology. Crucially, Walid I, who reigned as Caliph between 705 and 715, wrote to all the regions ordering the demolition and enlargement of all mosques. Could it be the Qibla only then shifted to Mecca?
Dome of the Rock
A possible answer as to why early mosques face towards Palestine is found in Jerusalem
In the city centre lies the Dome of the Rock, an imposing structure built by Abd al-Malik in 691 AD. It is considered the third holiest site in Islam, after Mecca and Medina. It seems to have been intended as a sanctuary rather than a mosque, as there is no Qibla and its octagonal design indicates it was used for circumambulation. Muslims believe it commemorates the Miraj, the night Muhammad went up into heaven to speak to Allah and Moses regarding the number of prayers required of believers.
Yet the inscriptions on the walls of the building say nothing of the Miraj but are polemical quranic quotations, aimed primarily at Christians. Perhaps this imposing building was built instead as the early sanctuary of Islam, before the adoption of Mecca. This is logical given Muhammads intention to reclaim the land of his birthright.
Certainly Muslim tradition suggests the Dome of the Rock may have been the early religious centre for Islam. The caliph Suleyman, who reigned up to 717 AD, went to Mecca to ask about the Hajj. He was not satisfied with the reply, and chose instead to follow Abd al-Malik, travelling to the Dome of the Rock.
Could it be that the Qiblas of the early mosques were aligned to the Dome of the Rock until the edict of Walid I in the early 8th century?
Nevos inscriptions
The late Yehuda Nevo from Jerusalem University extensively surveyed Arabic rock inscriptions, scattered over the Negev and Syro-Jordanian deserts. His research gives a useful picture of the historical Muhammad from contemporary non-Muslim sources.
In the Arab religious texts from the earliest Sufyani period (661-684 AD) there is a monotheistic creed but a complete absence of any reference to Muhammad. His name is only found on Arab inscriptions after 690 AD. The formula Muhammad rasul Allah (Muhammad is Gods prophet) occurs first on an Arab-Sassanian coin from 690 AD, struck in Damascus. More importantly, the first appearance of the Triple Confession of Faith including the Tawhid (God is one), Muhammad rasul Allah (Muhammad is his prophet) and rasul Allah wa-abduhu (the human nature of Jesus) is in Abd al-Maliks inscription at the Dome of the Rock, dated 691 AD. Before this the Muslim confession of faith cannot be substantiated.
Hence, for a full 60 years after the death of Muhammad, the official Arab religious confession did not include Muhammad in its set formulae. Instead it revealed a monotheistic belief, developing Judaeo-Christian concepts in a particular literary style. When the Muhammadan creed is introduced, during the Marwanid period (after 684 AD) it appears almost overnight as the only form of official religious declaration in formal documents. It seems that Muhammads elevation to the status of universal prophet did not occur until the late 7th century, long after his death.
The Quran
Evidently the Quran underwent a transformation during the 100 years following the Prophets death. Recognisable quranic writings appear on coins and on the Dome of the Rock during the reign of Abd al-Malik from 685 AD, but they differ from the official quranic text today. The Quran cannot then have been canonized during Muhammads lifetime, but must have undergone a process of evolution. Indeed the earliest reference to a book called the Quran fr a sanctuary located not in Mecca, but in northern Arabia or even Jerusalem, until the early 8th century. It cannot be that the early Muslims wrongly estimated the direction of Mecca. They were desert traders and caravaners, adept at travelling by the stars. How else did they perform the obligatory Hajj, which was also canonized at this time? There is a serious discrepancy between the Quran and modern archaeology. Crucially, Walid I, who reigned as Caliph between 705 and 715, wrote to all the regions orderan maintains is at odds with historical data from the 7th-8th centuries. Specifically:
The Jews retained a relationship with the Arabs until at least AD 640, not 624 AD
Mecca was not the first and most important city in the world; it was unknown until the end of the 7th century and was not even on the international trade route
The Qibla (direction of prayer) was not fixed towards Mecca until the 8th century but to an area further north, possibly Jerusalem
The Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem was possibly the original sanctuary
Muhammad was not known as the Seal of the Prophets until the late 7th century; the creeds from Muhammad's time contain a monotheistic religion but no Muhammadan formulae
The earliest we even hear of the Quran is not until the mid-8th century
The earliest quranic writings on coins and on the Dome of the Rock do not coincide with the current quranic text
This suggests the Quran we now read is not the same as that which was supposedly collated and canonized in 650 AD by Uthman. The earliest quranic manuscripts in our possession today (dating from 790 AD) would appear to reflect an evolution in the quranic text. This challenges the Muslim contention that the Quran contains the original and exact revelation of Allah, as recited by Muhammad and hence strikes at the very heart of the Islamic faith. The Quran has in the past been protected by a kind of doctrinal embargo- but can Muslims ignore the mounting tide of evidence to the contrary?"
Does someone knows any rebuttal to this article ? It's from the site issaalmasih.net
Thank you in advance for the answers.
Muslims are adamant in asserting that the Quran is the final true word of God. However the historical reliability of Islam has been challenged by contemporary scholarship. Manuscript, documentary and archaeological evidence all fail to confirm many of the claims of Islam. Let's explore the mounting case against Islam from external documentary sources and modern archaeology.
Non-Muslim Sources
The Jews
The Quran implies that Muhammad severed his relationship with the Jews in 624 AD, soon after the Hijra (migration to Mecca). At that time the direction of prayer, the Qibla, was moved from Jerusalem to Mecca (Sura 2:144, 149-150).
However, non-Muslim sources, the Doctrina Iacobi and the Armenian Chronicle of 660 AD, maintain the Arabs and the Jews were allies as late as 640 AD, during the conquest of Palestine. Muhammad established a community of Ishmaelites and Jews based on their common birthright to the Holy Land. This relationship endured at least 15 years beyond the qur'anic date.
Mecca
According to the Quran, Mecca was the first and most important city in the world. Adam placed the black stone in the original Kaba (sanctuary) there, while Abraham and Ishmael rebuilt the Meccan Kaba centuries later (Sura 2:125-127). Mecca was allegedly the centre of Arabian trading routes before Muhammads time.
Yet there is no archeological corroboration for this. Such a great ancient city would surely have received a mention in ancient history. However, the earliest reference to Mecca as a city is in the Continuato Byzantia Arabica, an 8th century document. Mecca is certainly not on the natural overland trade routes- it is a barren valley requiring a one hundred mile detour. Moreover, there was only maritime Graeco-Roman trade with India after the first century, controlled by the Ethiopian Red Sea port Adulis, not by the Arabs. If Mecca was not even a viable city, let alone a great commercial centre until after Muhammads time, the Quran is seriously in doubt.
Archaeology
Qibla
According to the Quran, the direction of prayer (Qibla) was canonized towards Mecca for all Muslims circa 624 AD, two years after the Hijra (see Sura 2:144, 149-50). Yet the earliest archaeological evidence from mosques built at the beginning of the 8th century suggests their sanctuary was located a long way north of Mecca, closer to the vicinity of Jerusalem.
The Qibla of the first mosque in Kufa, Iraq, constructed in 670 AD, pointed west instead of due south. Likewise, floor plans from two later Umayyad (650-750 AD) mosques in Iraq, demonstrate their Qiblas were oriented too far north. The Wasit mosque is off by 33 degrees, the Baghdad mosque by 30 degrees. The Amr b. al As mosque near Cairo, again pointed too far north and had to be corrected under a later governor.
Jacob of Odessa, a Christian writer and traveller, was a contemporary eye-witness writing in Egypt around 705 AD. His letter in the British Museum maintains the Mahgraye (Greek term for Arabs) in Egypt prayed facing east, towards their Kaba, the place of their patriarchal origin- in other words towards Palestine, not Mecca.
Thus the evidence points to a sanctuary located not in Mecca, but in northern Arabia or even Jerusalem, until the early 8th century. It cannot be that the early Muslims wrongly estimated the direction of Mecca. They were desert traders and caravaners, adept at travelling by the stars. How else did they perform the obligatory Hajj, which was also canonized at this time? There is a serious discrepancy between the Quran and modern archaeology. Crucially, Walid I, who reigned as Caliph between 705 and 715, wrote to all the regions ordering the demolition and enlargement of all mosques. Could it be the Qibla only then shifted to Mecca?
Dome of the Rock
A possible answer as to why early mosques face towards Palestine is found in Jerusalem
In the city centre lies the Dome of the Rock, an imposing structure built by Abd al-Malik in 691 AD. It is considered the third holiest site in Islam, after Mecca and Medina. It seems to have been intended as a sanctuary rather than a mosque, as there is no Qibla and its octagonal design indicates it was used for circumambulation. Muslims believe it commemorates the Miraj, the night Muhammad went up into heaven to speak to Allah and Moses regarding the number of prayers required of believers.
Yet the inscriptions on the walls of the building say nothing of the Miraj but are polemical quranic quotations, aimed primarily at Christians. Perhaps this imposing building was built instead as the early sanctuary of Islam, before the adoption of Mecca. This is logical given Muhammads intention to reclaim the land of his birthright.
Certainly Muslim tradition suggests the Dome of the Rock may have been the early religious centre for Islam. The caliph Suleyman, who reigned up to 717 AD, went to Mecca to ask about the Hajj. He was not satisfied with the reply, and chose instead to follow Abd al-Malik, travelling to the Dome of the Rock.
Could it be that the Qiblas of the early mosques were aligned to the Dome of the Rock until the edict of Walid I in the early 8th century?
Nevos inscriptions
The late Yehuda Nevo from Jerusalem University extensively surveyed Arabic rock inscriptions, scattered over the Negev and Syro-Jordanian deserts. His research gives a useful picture of the historical Muhammad from contemporary non-Muslim sources.
In the Arab religious texts from the earliest Sufyani period (661-684 AD) there is a monotheistic creed but a complete absence of any reference to Muhammad. His name is only found on Arab inscriptions after 690 AD. The formula Muhammad rasul Allah (Muhammad is Gods prophet) occurs first on an Arab-Sassanian coin from 690 AD, struck in Damascus. More importantly, the first appearance of the Triple Confession of Faith including the Tawhid (God is one), Muhammad rasul Allah (Muhammad is his prophet) and rasul Allah wa-abduhu (the human nature of Jesus) is in Abd al-Maliks inscription at the Dome of the Rock, dated 691 AD. Before this the Muslim confession of faith cannot be substantiated.
Hence, for a full 60 years after the death of Muhammad, the official Arab religious confession did not include Muhammad in its set formulae. Instead it revealed a monotheistic belief, developing Judaeo-Christian concepts in a particular literary style. When the Muhammadan creed is introduced, during the Marwanid period (after 684 AD) it appears almost overnight as the only form of official religious declaration in formal documents. It seems that Muhammads elevation to the status of universal prophet did not occur until the late 7th century, long after his death.
The Quran
Evidently the Quran underwent a transformation during the 100 years following the Prophets death. Recognisable quranic writings appear on coins and on the Dome of the Rock during the reign of Abd al-Malik from 685 AD, but they differ from the official quranic text today. The Quran cannot then have been canonized during Muhammads lifetime, but must have undergone a process of evolution. Indeed the earliest reference to a book called the Quran fr a sanctuary located not in Mecca, but in northern Arabia or even Jerusalem, until the early 8th century. It cannot be that the early Muslims wrongly estimated the direction of Mecca. They were desert traders and caravaners, adept at travelling by the stars. How else did they perform the obligatory Hajj, which was also canonized at this time? There is a serious discrepancy between the Quran and modern archaeology. Crucially, Walid I, who reigned as Caliph between 705 and 715, wrote to all the regions orderan maintains is at odds with historical data from the 7th-8th centuries. Specifically:
The Jews retained a relationship with the Arabs until at least AD 640, not 624 AD
Mecca was not the first and most important city in the world; it was unknown until the end of the 7th century and was not even on the international trade route
The Qibla (direction of prayer) was not fixed towards Mecca until the 8th century but to an area further north, possibly Jerusalem
The Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem was possibly the original sanctuary
Muhammad was not known as the Seal of the Prophets until the late 7th century; the creeds from Muhammad's time contain a monotheistic religion but no Muhammadan formulae
The earliest we even hear of the Quran is not until the mid-8th century
The earliest quranic writings on coins and on the Dome of the Rock do not coincide with the current quranic text
This suggests the Quran we now read is not the same as that which was supposedly collated and canonized in 650 AD by Uthman. The earliest quranic manuscripts in our possession today (dating from 790 AD) would appear to reflect an evolution in the quranic text. This challenges the Muslim contention that the Quran contains the original and exact revelation of Allah, as recited by Muhammad and hence strikes at the very heart of the Islamic faith. The Quran has in the past been protected by a kind of doctrinal embargo- but can Muslims ignore the mounting tide of evidence to the contrary?"
Does someone knows any rebuttal to this article ? It's from the site issaalmasih.net
Thank you in advance for the answers.
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GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Re: HELP: Imran's fatherhood in the Quran. I'm a muslim and i don't find the rebutta
« on: May 07, 2013, 08:48:09 PM »thank you brother.
Don't worry ... the point was cleared in another thread
please..check the following link ,
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,88.msg231.html#msg231
peace
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GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Re: HELP: Imran's fatherhood in the Quran. I'm a muslim and i don't find the rebutta
« on: May 07, 2013, 03:09:52 PM »
I know the difference between Mary, the mother of Jesus (PBUH) and Mary, sister of Moses (PBUH) thank you, I'm not that stupid :p
Christians say that prophet Muhammad (PBUH) confused the 2 Marys in the quran.
I just want a rebuttal. specially about sura 3:33. I didn't find any rebuttal and it worries me.
Christians say that prophet Muhammad (PBUH) confused the 2 Marys in the quran.
I just want a rebuttal. specially about sura 3:33. I didn't find any rebuttal and it worries me.
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GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / HELP: Imran's fatherhood in the Quran. I'm a muslim and i don't find the rebutta
« on: May 07, 2013, 12:22:12 AM »
Salam waalaykom wa rahmat ALLAH wa baraketou,
I'm a tunisian muslim, and i'm quite worried in these few days, because i can't find a rebuttal to the article "Imran's fatherhood" wrotten by Sam Shamoun in anwering-islam. The problem is that I don't find any rebuttal at all dealing with this issue.
I have no problem understanding the "Mary sister of Harun" thing, but it's the rest that bothers me, like the fact that according to our holy scripture, Imran's wife was Mary's mother.
Please help me find a rebuttal to that article, or if there is one, give me a link.
Thank you very much.
I'm a tunisian muslim, and i'm quite worried in these few days, because i can't find a rebuttal to the article "Imran's fatherhood" wrotten by Sam Shamoun in anwering-islam. The problem is that I don't find any rebuttal at all dealing with this issue.
I have no problem understanding the "Mary sister of Harun" thing, but it's the rest that bothers me, like the fact that according to our holy scripture, Imran's wife was Mary's mother.
Please help me find a rebuttal to that article, or if there is one, give me a link.
Thank you very much.
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