Answering Christianity Research Center

Brother Osama,
“but the Noble Verses speak about the sun and the moon and other planets in relation to the earth are not in contradiction with science.”

Even if I were to grant that, which I do not, still, that does not constitute a “miracle” much less a “stunning scientific miracle” as you propose repeatedly.

Compatibility does not equal “miracle”.  The Qur’an says there is a moon.  Modern science says there is a moon.  Ok, but what does that prove?  That is an easily observable fact.  Easily observable facts are compatible with modern science.  They are not miracles.

“You can technically and scientifically speak a system with the earth being the focus or the center”
Only if one has a very egocentric worldview, or we are speaking of apparent motion.  No comprehensive modern scientific model puts the Earth at the center of a celestial system.


“All rotate around each others even when the sun appears to be the center and the focus:”
Objects in a system under study rotate around a common center of mass.  Ok, I do not see how this in any way supports any supposed “scientific miracles” in the Qur’an.

You go on to assert these things are claimed in the Qur’an but I did not see the text quoted you assert these claims come from, so I suspect your claims are not valid in the first place, but let’s just suppose for a moment the Qur’an does assert these things.  Are they miraculous?

To be a scientific miracle they must be necessarily of divine origin.  To be a miracle they must require a divine origin.  If any human origin is possible they are disqualified from the classification as “miracle”

“Also, the Glorious Quran [1] declares that the earth is:”

“1- Spherical.”
Not a miracle because there were many known evidences of the spherical shape of the Earth.  The Greeks even calculated the diameter of the Earth.

2- Suspended in Space.
Not a miracle because celestial models of the day placed the earth in space, surrounded by planets and stars also in space

3- Rotating around itself. (emphasis on dahaha and its derivatives)
Not a miracle because it had been proposed previously by ordinary humans.

4- Is traveling in Space.
Really?  Where?  Please cite for me the Quranic passage that explicitly states the Earth is orbiting the Sun, and our solar system is orbiting our galactic center of mass.
Not a miracle because no such specific descriptions exist.

5- Also, all celestial bodies are Yaa'rujoon (traveling in orbits) in space
Please, brother Osama, everybody thought that.  That is what the Ptolemaic system was, the celestial bodies in their orbits.  A few even thought the sun was at the center and other bodies were in orbits.  These were ideas well known in that day.
Need I say, not a miracle?

You underlined
“it sets in one place and rises in another”
That is your “miracle”?  The sun sets in one place and rises in another place?  I must admit to being flabbergasted.  Is there anything more obvious in life than the fact that the sun sets in one place and rises in another?

Yes, that is compatible with modern science…that is indeed true.  And it is indeed stunning, but I am very sorry to say not stunning in the sense you generally speak of.

I really do warmly invite you to take another look at brother Hamza’s  journey on this subject.  I realize you do not consider him to be a linguistic authority, and certainly, speaking Arabic as a first language is a significant advantage in Quranic study.

But, when a man cites “it sets in one place and rises in another” in support of a divinity hypothesis I believe linguistic nuances of translation become less important than the ability to analyze scientific questions while avoiding logical fallacies.  In that regard I suggest you could gain some valuable insights from brother Hamza if you are not prepared to accept them from an atheist such as I.

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/

Mr. Habbal,
Asked and answered.  But, you seem unwilling or unable to engage in consideration of your fallacy of hasty generalization.  See « Reply #99 on: January 18, 2016, 06:14:35 AM » for a more complete explanation of your error.

As for your repeated questions about 9/11, again, asked and answered:
The topic of this thread is "There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an" and that is the topic I intend to discuss here.

Brother Ahmad,
"today’s science tells us that the moon doesn’t actually overtake the sun"

Ok, depends how one defines "overtake".  In angular measure, yes, the sun and the moon do overtake each other.  If, on a circular track, one racer overtakes another that does not mean he collides with the other, rather, that his his angular measure passes that of the other.

According to the Oxford dictionary (I know you cite Webster but I prefer Oxford)
overtake
1. Catch up with and pass while traveling in the same direction

The sun and the moon travel in nearly the same arc across the sky, yet one passes the other at new moon.  So I think it is an error to fail to account for this observational fact.

"I have become pretty certain that you are trying hard to find any mistakes in the Qur’an"
Actually, the mistakes find me!  I mean, every time I look up the supposed "stunning scientific miracle" asserted by brother Osama all I find is either a vague description of the obvious or outright error.

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an.

I don't have to look for mistakes, brother Osama points me to them again and again.

Mr. Habbal,
The hadith calls for a pathogen on 1 wing and antidote on the other wing.

Nothing in your citation demonstrates the alternate wing assertion of the hadith.

Science does not work by 1 study.  A scientific confirmation requires repeatability. Can this experiment be repeated reliably by scientists everywhere?  And even if it can, the mere observation that a particular pathogen does not grow in large quantities visible as a colony in water over time does not mean the water is safe to drink immediately.

Perhaps worst of all you have committed a hasty generalization, a logical fallacy, which applied broadly could lead to a big health problem as brother Osama wisely pointed out:
“if we do this with multiple or many infested flies, then we will have a big health problem.”
http://www.answering-christianity.com/hadiths_of_the_fly.htm

This is your hasty generalization:
Flies carry pathogens A, B, C, D, E….
Water did not grow visibly over time pathogen C in 1 study.
Therefore humans are safe to drink pathogen C immediately if the fly is dipped.
Therefore humans are also safe from pathogens A, B, D, E…

What you are proposing violates the scientific method, makes a false generalization between a water culture over time and the effects of immediate ingestion by a human being, and falsely concludes that all dangerous microorganisms carried by flies will be neutralized by antidotes carried by the fly itself.

I invite you to study the scientific method and logical fallacies. What you have proposed is unscientific, logically fallacious, and a public health hazard.

Brother Ahmad,
““And the sun runs…” (Qur’an 36:38)

I believe that the part that is being claimed to be extraordinary is the speed of the sun. Simple observation puts the sun moving extremely slowly. It would’ve been much more understandable and relatable to the audience of Prophet Muhammad if the verse said something like: as the sun unhurriedly moves in the heavens the end of all time comes near you with the same sluggishness, steadily but surely, so repent!”

That section of the Qur’an discusses light versus darkness, the motion of the sun, and the phases of the moon, all in rather vague and poetic language with no special insights other then looking into the sky and poetically expressing a few general impressions of light, dark, the sun, and the moon.

Men have been writing poetically about the dark and the light, the sun and the moon for a very long time.  How is that in any way a miracle?

To you, Ahmad, run is associated with fast, the sun seems to go slow, so the verse must be a miraculous prediction of the sun going fast when it appears to go slow.  Please brother, you really must excuse me for not taking that kind of explanation seriously.

“Run” has a multitude of meanings.  A cold may run its course, a road runs North and South, water runs, my nose runs when I have a cold, a particular brand of shoe has sizes that run small.  We may run into difficulty, run for office, or run away from a problem. "Run" does not equal "fast motion"

The sun rises, moves across the sky, and sets.  Poetically described by 7th century religious man, we get the below:
Sahih International: And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.

Pickthall: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

Yusuf Ali: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.

Shakir: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.

Muhammad Sarwar: how the sun moves in its orbit and this is the decree of the Majestic and All-knowing God;

Mohsin Khan: And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.

Arberry: And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=36&verse=38

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an, only simple observations by 7th century man and a variety of textual statements that are literally false.

Mr. Habbal,
Here is the text
"The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."
Sahih Bukhari 4:54:537"

There is no evidence that one wing has a disease and the other wing has the cure for that disease.

It might be that we derive certain treatments from insects, such as the fly.  There is no evidence that one is well advised to "dip it in the drink" because the fly can carry a wide variety of pathogens, and antidotes to those pathogens have not been found on one wing of the fly or anyplace else on they fly.

You are engaging in fallacious thinking.  If you do not understand how your reasoning is fallacious then I invite you to study logical fallacies and how to make an argument that avoids them.

Brother Osama questions the validity of this Hadith here:
The Hadith of the fly is not a Mutawatir one
http://www.answering-christianity.com/hadiths_of_the_fly.htm


The topic of this thread is "There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an"  and that is the topic I intend to address here.

We created man from an extract of clay.  Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed.  Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance).. (Quran, 23:12-14)

“We created man from an extract of clay. “
No, man did not come from clay.  Science tells us man evolved from lower primates.

“We made him as a drop”
A drop of what, semen?  How obvious.  It was well known that semen is necessary to reproduction in humans.

“in a place of settlement”
Semen can’t go too far once it is inside a vagina, now can it?  Actually it doesn’t settle, it mixes with the woman’s own fluids.

“We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot),”
Obviously a crude description of the products of miscarriage.  When a woman has an miscarriage it looks vaguly like a leech or a blood clot.  Of course it is neither, so the verse is mistaken, but it is crudely description of the products of miscarriage.  The cord makes a baby a "suspended thing", how obvious.

“We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)”
Again the words are factually incorrect, we do not come from a chewed substance.  But this is just another crude description of the products of miscarriage.

The Qur’an offers only obvious observations, crude descriptions available to 7th century man, or outright errors.

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an

Brother Osama asserts that 36:38 is some kind of miracle.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

In fact it is plainly obvious.  Just look up in the sky during the day!  “The sun runs a course for a time to a fixed resting place.”
How can any reasonable person consider that to somehow be a miracle?  That is just a crude and erroneous description of the obvious.
The sun does not rest, it just seems to at sunset.
The sunset point is not fixed, rather it changes each day.
The sun was thought to orbit the Earth in those days, which is a far simpler explanation for the words than an asserted miracle of predicted galactic orbit.

Here is 36:38
Chapter (36) sūrat yā sīn
Sahih International: And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
Pickthall: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
Yusuf Ali: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
Shakir: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.
Muhammad Sarwar: how the sun moves in its orbit and this is the decree of the Majestic and All-knowing God;
Mohsin Khan: And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.
Arberry: And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing.

Brother Osama cites these verses
32:5, 34:2, 57:4, 70:3-4

Here is 32:5
Chapter (32) sūrat l-sajdah (The Prostration)
Sahih International: He arranges [each] matter from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him in a Day, the extent of which is a thousand years of those which you count.
Pickthall: He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.
Yusuf Ali: He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning.
Shakir: He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.
Muhammad Sarwar: He sends the regulation of the affair from the heavens to the earth, then on the day which is equal to one thousand years of yours, it will ascend to Him.
Mohsin Khan: He arranges (every) affair from the heavens to the earth, then it (affair) will go up to Him, in one Day, the space whereof is a thousand years of your reckoning (i.e. reckoning of our present world's time).
Arberry: He directs the affair from heaven to earth, then it goes up to Him in one day, whose measure is a thousand years of your counting.

Here is 34:2
Chapter (34) sūrat saba (Sheba)
Sahih International: He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein. And He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.
Pickthall: He knoweth that which goeth into the earth and that which cometh forth from it, and that descendeth from the heaven and that which ascendeth into it. He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.
Yusuf Ali: He knows all that goes into the earth, and all that comes out thereof; all that comes down from the sky and all that ascends thereto and He is the Most Merciful, the Oft-Forgiving.
Shakir: He knows that which goes down into the earth and that which comes out of it, and that which comes down from the heaven and that which goes up to it; and He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.
Muhammad Sarwar: He knows all that enters the earth, all that comes out of it, all that descends from the sky and all that ascends to it. He is All-merciful and All-forgiving.
Mohsin Khan: He knows that which goes into the earth and that which comes forth from it, and that which descend from the heaven and that which ascends to it. And He is the Most Merciful, the OftForgiving.
Arberry: He knows what penetrates into the earth, and what comes forth from it, what comes down from heaven, and what goes up to it; He is the All-compassionate, the All-forgiving.

Here is 57:4
Chapter (57) sūrat l-ḥadīd (The Iron)
Sahih International: It is He who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein; and He is with you wherever you are. And Allah , of what you do, is Seeing.
Pickthall: He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days; then He mounted the Throne. He knoweth all that entereth the earth and all that emergeth therefrom and all that cometh down from the sky and all that ascendeth therein; and He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah is Seer of what ye do.
Yusuf Ali: He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days, and is moreover firmly established on the Throne (of Authority). He knows what enters within the earth and what comes forth out of it, what comes down from heaven and what mounts up to it. And He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
Shakir: He it is who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power; He knows that which goes deep down into the earth and that which comes forth out of it, and that which comes down from the heaven and that which goes up into it, and He is with you wherever you are; and Allah sees what you do.
Muhammad Sarwar: It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then established His Dominion over the Throne. He knows whatever enters into the earth, what comes out of it, what descends from the sky, and what ascends to it. He is with you wherever you may be and He is Well Aware of what you do.
Mohsin Khan: He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then Istawa (rose over) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). He knows what goes into the earth and what comes forth from it, what descends from the heaven and what ascends thereto. And He is with you (by His Knowledge) wheresoever you may be. And Allah is the All-Seer of what you do.
Arberry: It is He that created the heavens and the earth in six days then seated Himself upon the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth, and what comes forth from it, -- what comes down from heaven, and what goes up unto it. He is with you wherever you are; and God sees the things you do.

Here is 70:3
Chapter (70) sūrat l-maʿārij (The Ways of Ascent)
Sahih International: [It is] from Allah , owner of the ways of ascent.
Pickthall: From Allah, Lord of the Ascending Stairways
Yusuf Ali: (A Penalty) from Allah, Lord of the Ways of Ascent.
Shakir: From Allah, the Lord of the ways of Ascent.
Muhammad Sarwar: No one can defend him against God, the Lord of the exalted positions.
Mohsin Khan: From Allah, the Lord of the ways of ascent.
Arberry: from God, the Lord of the Stairways.

Here is 70:4
Chapter (70) sūrat l-maʿārij (The Ways of Ascent)
Sahih International: The angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years.
Pickthall: (Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years.
Yusuf Ali: The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:
Shakir: To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.
Muhammad Sarwar: On that Day (of Judgment), long as fifty thousand years, the angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him.
Mohsin Khan: The angels and the Ruh [Jibrael (Gabriel)] ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years,
Arberry: To Him the angels and the Spirit mount up, in a day whereof the measure is fifty thousand years.


Brothers, where is the scientific miracle in all that?

Those verses are just meandering words asserting thrones and angels and spirits and stairways.  Not a bit of “scientific miracle” in any of it.

A day is either a day, or 1000 years, or 50,000 years.  So, according to the Qur’an, the universe and the Earth was created in either 6 days, 6000 years, or 300,000 years.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong, science tells us.

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.