Answering Christianity Research Center

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Why did he neglect when Allah also explains the stages of human creation in 32:7-9 and many other places?  Are you denying those verses?

Therefore we must conclude that when the Quran says: (Quran 71:14)  God created you in  stages , it is referring to the stages mentioned in the embryology verses and the origin of man verses.

There really is no reasonable refutation to this unless you'd like to adhere to excuse making and say that Quran 32:7-9 are not talking about stages even though they clearly are.

As I said , Ill refrain . I already wasted hours of trying to reason with you . But you just can't abandon what you were forced to learn . How funny that accuse me of your own case .

That sounds like an excuse to not debate me. Why not refute my arguments instead of insulting them? The Quran said explictly we were created in stages and the Quran explicitly highlighted what those stages were-evolutionary and embryological. There really is no way out of this if you want to remain intellectually honest. 

And indeed , attacking you doesn't change what the Quran says . Attacking you is just my personal opinion about your misguidance . What really demolishes your false claims is what I already mentioned before and how you take anything there is as evidence for your doctrine . It's a matter of believe first and then find evidence . If you really want to go on and are sure that absolute truth is with you then drop by the place I told you unless it makes you feel insecure . 

Glad we are on the same page. You are gonna have to show me where where I was forging evidence.

If you are asking me to find evidence, I have shown you Quranic evidence that there really is no way out of unless you become dishonest.

I believe your issue with evolution is not Quranic, but rather scientific. This is a religious forum, there are many science forums you can go to and debate with evolution. All you need to is study it and see the evidence for it.

I have dropped by the places you keep pointing me at, do you expect me to go through all of the sites and write you a response one by one? Give me certain aspects of them that compel you and I will answer you.

I've done a lot of work on that subject--both scientific and religious research.

I am compelled to believe in the fact of evolution. Science has proved it and the Quran has implied it. There is a reason why the prominent scientists no longer consider evolution to be a theory. It has become very strong in its evidence and explanatory power. All the evidence we have proves evolution. Did you get that? All (not 'most') of the evidence we have proves evolution.

But evidence doesn't convince the unwilling. , Allah does not love these kinds of people. He has given you intellect and higher intelligence. Many times in the Quran this is mentioned, intellect is important.

(Quran 8:22) Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason
(Quran 8:23) Had Allah known any good in them, He would have made them hear. And if He had made them hear, they would [still] have turned away, while they were refusing.
(Quran 21:10) We have sent down to you a Book. It will give you eminence, honour and nobility. Will you then not be sensible and reasonable and understand it?

A perfect example is the flat earth society, please drop by and see the dishonesty and unwilling nature:  http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?board=10.0

You are ordered to reflect upon the Quran:

(Quran 47:24) Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?


So reflect upon these verses:

(Quran 64:3) ...He designed you and perfected your design...
(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has made everything He created BETTER, and He began the creation of the human.. <--reflect upon this, why does the Quran say that creation was made better or perfected, and then links that with the beginning of human creation?

In this post, I will discuss the absurdity of the idea of sex slaves:
Sex with Concubines / Slave Girls:


This is another absurdity that needs to be addressed. The clerics just go on stating that sex with slave girls are allowed. And they would also go on to state that source of slave girls were the women caught during the war.

Lets see how much truth is in the matter of this myth.

-   First, the Quran does **NOT** state that source of slaves were ware captives.
-   Second: For war captives had a rule i.e.

[8:67]
No prophet shall acquire captives, unless he participates in the fighting. You people are seeking the materials of this world, while GOD advocates the Hereafter. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

There is another very important point that needs to be elaborated here. Unlike the common notion, the war captives cannot be held indefinitely i.e.:

   [47:4]
If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. Had GOD willed, He could have granted you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of GOD, He will never put their sacrifice to waste.

Thus the war captives had to be set free in any case. If not during the war, then they are to be freed at the end of the war. Many quranic scholars state this verse as an end to slavery !

Now the word used or IMPLIED to be used for slaves is  Malakat Aimanukum

What does it mean ?
It means *those who are rightfully yours* or *those under your oath / agreement*.

The simplest point is that **IF** Ma-Malakat Aimanukum are sex objects to be enjoyed then obviously no one is going to give up the privilege for nothing.

Keeping the same thing in mind, one can see the following verses:

   [4:24]
Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you.* These are GOD's commandments to you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, so long as you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain your morality, by not committing adultery. Thus, whoever you like among them, you shall pay them the dowry decreed for them. You commit no error by mutually agreeing to any adjustments to the dowry. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

[4:25]
Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing Ma Malakat Aimanukum. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women.* Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.


Thus Ma Malakat Aimanukum are not something for a free ride.

Another factor that would simply shoot the theory in the foot, (of sex being legal with the slaves), is the verse 24:58.

Obviously we do not have to ask permission for our spouses to see us. There is nothing hidden of us from them. A clear factor that can even be grasped ALSO from the Quran (even if we do not get into the very obvious):


[2:187]
Permitted for you is sexual intercourse with your wives during the nights of fasting. They are the keepers of your secrets, and you are the keepers of their secrets. GOD knew that you used to betray your souls, and He has redeemed you, and has pardoned you. Henceforth, you may have intercourse with them, seeking what GOD has permitted for you. You may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn. Then, you shall fast until sunset. Sexual intercourse is prohibited if you decide to retreat to the masjid (during the last ten days of Ramadan). These are GOD's laws; you shall not transgress them. GOD thus clarifies His revelations for the people, that they may attain salvation.


Following the same logic, we see that in 24:58


[24:58]
O you who believe, permission must be requested by your **Ma Malakat Aimanukum** and the children who have not attained puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in three instances - before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.


This shoots the theory of sex with slaves in the foot.

There are a few factors that one must understand in the process. Having women outside the marriage bond that can be sex objects has its points that are contradictory to the general perception and propagated concepts.

1-   If a woman can be acquired as a slave that can be a sex object then there is no point in marrying such a woman and paying her the due dowry.


The next question can be then what is the real definition of Ma Malakat Aimanukum.

A few observations of the usage of Ma Malakat Aimunukum reveals that, it has been used to mean multiple entities at a time.

1-   In 4:3 the MMA (Maa Malakat Aimunukum) has been used for the FIRST wife or the wife you already have.
2-   In 4:25 MMA is referred to some women who are in a transition towards better life / morals.
3-   In 24:58 it refers to servants.
4-   In 33:50 they are the women who give themselves to the prophet by forfeiting their dowry.

Thus in my opinion a more viable explanation is that the Ma Malakat Aimanukum were the women who fled the enemy camp and came to the believers for refuge. They were given to their guardians where they were being educated to the norms of the Islamic society and behavior.

   [60:12]
O you prophet, when the believing women (who abandoned the disbelievers) to seek asylum with you pledge to you that they will not set up any idols besides GOD, nor steal, nor commit adultery, nor kill their children, nor fabricate any falsehood, nor disobey your righteous orders, you shall accept their pledge, and pray to GOD to forgive them. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

The fake smile has returned I see . One minute you call me a disbeliever and now this ?

First of all , I didn't take a thing from Quran and Darwinism website . And seeing your way of forging evidence , I don't think you're one to talk about dishonesty !
We already discussed it and we all saw how you come up with anything at all to support your faith in Darwinism . Going on any further will be fruitless .

Asalamu Alaikum, did you get my youtube response, I sent several but they are not showing up in my sent box. Let me know if you got any because you haven't responded yet.

I have not forged any evidence to my knowledge, nor have I shown dishonesty. Attacking me does not change what the Quran says  :D

And right on time too, when the debate shook this forum!

http://www.bangkokpost.com/learning/learning-from-news/375607/1-8-million-year-old-skulls-may-change-evolution-theory

That is dealing with the exact specifics of human evolution, not necessary the evolution fact.

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mclinkin94, I don't have time at the moment to respond to your article about evolution being supported by the Quran. But, in short words: the Quran in some places tells us that the man was created from dust and in some others from a liquid. To make it clear, the Quran says that it was Adam who was created from dust, which means that whenever the Quran talks about people being created from a liquid etc is talking about other people:

Hello brother:

Your method of using just your intellect to determine what is right and what is wrong, to interpret the Quran and to judge whether a hadith is true or not, is not islamic. To show you the weakness of our minds, just take the philosophers as an example. Didn't all of them use the intellect? Didn't all of their conclusions come after a long time thinking, using logic, etc? The answer is yes of course. But, were their conclusions the same? Absolutely not. Perhaps we have conclusions as much as philosophers. This is the result of using just your intellect and making it independent. You may say that "I make conclusion using the Quran". I said in my earlier post: by using the Quran as the only source, people will come to completely different conclusions.

I don't agree with this at all. I believe the Quran has stressed using our intellect and gaining evidence-it is mentioned there in nearly ALL chapters! Just because of the fact that conclusions can be right or wrong, does not make all conclusions wrong. Philosophers have also made many right approaches to understanding. The logical understanding and the philosophy of science are the most successful so far.

So conclusions can be right or wrong, and you must examine them scientifically. The Quran highlights this in one verse and it says those with knowledge may understand the unclear verses of the Quran, but the true translation is only known by Allah.

(Quran 3:7) It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

So there are verses that are precise, the alcohol verse is precise and it is the specific verse, There is no debate there. Allah's feelings towards homosexuality is also precise and clear in the Quran. There are verses in the Quran not like that, those verses are primarily the ones that focus on science! If you look at brother Osama's website (answeringChristiantiy) you notice that he applies scientific knowledge to show you the hidden scientific meaning of verses! Brother Osama is one of those with knowledge according to that verse. But even still, the true translation is from Allah!

When I took the example of those people making alcohol permissible using arguments from the Quran, you said their arguments were weak, or they didn't have arguments at all. The same way, those verses that you regard as arguments of evolution being true, for me are not even arguments and using them to prove evolution is ridiculous.

That is because I have read their arguments. You read my arguments that show evolution and you scrutinize them, that is how we determine if it makes sense, that is how science and philosophy work  ...Question your beliefs!

So what you are doind by trying to interpret the Quran, is just following your desires. 

Maybe, but you have to examine their arguments irrespective of their desires

Do you know that the main reason why there are so many sects within Islam, is misinterpretation of the Quran, using "the desire-follower intellect".

There are many sects because of hadiths and yes people do interpret the Quran to their desires, but that doesn't mean that their interpretation is wrong, you must examine the interpretation itself and show them it is wrong.

You said "We have to do a systematic study of hadiths"!? There are people who can't learn propely to pray, because of time, knowledge etc. If everyone would become a self-confessed scholar of Islam, there would be a chaos. Everone will follow what he thinks is true and people will fall in confusion. Whom to follow? I just can't believe our God, the only God, Allah, can let people in such a pain. That's why he said:

 O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. (4:59)

I'm not saying to become a self-confessed scholar of Islam. I am saying utilize scholarly sources like Quranic interpreations and Quranic Arabic and arive at a conclusion. I like to think freely, I don't think the way the scholars want me to think, I refuse to commit shirk--the scholars are not perfect nor are they divine.

Again, you must examine the quotes itself.

You said that the Prophet is not alive now, so the rule of refering to the Messenger is not applicable to us. You have to understand one thing: when the Quran talks about something, even if it is history, even if it is refering to Prophet Muhammad or his compaions, no matter what, it is refering to us too. The Quran is for all times.

Of course it is for us, but there are some verses not applicable to us. Like the verses on prisoners of war . So the Quran is made for all times and places. So it has verses applicable to 7th century people and us. For example verse 55:33 didn't apply to the prophet Muhammad, he could go into space

 

So in this case, by refering to the Messeger, it means refering to his Sunnah, to his hadiths.

That's assuming that Hadiths are perfect and the scholars are infallible. I do not do this. I know that hadiths could have some truth in them, but, I shall not trust them. many many many times have they proven to be false.

The disagreement which Quran talks about - is not any disagreement by every person who only wants to follow his desires. So, can everyone disagree with scholars about whatever he wants? Of course not. What the verse is talking about, is when there is not a consensus about something between scholars, or between a large group of people, or between two schools of thought etc. So our duty then is to refer to the Quran and the Sunnah, and to accept the consensus arrived by the scholars. If there is no consensus, to follow that which we think is more logical (here the logic comes in!). Here is what Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi says in his english tafsir, explaining this verse:

Hence, if a dispute arises about any matter between the Muslims or between the rulers and the ruled, they should turn to the Qur'an and the Sunnah for a decision and they should all submit to the decision. (http://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/4/index.html#sdfootnote90sym)

No, you turn to the Quran for any decisions and ALL decision! And if there is a problem with the rulers, go back to the Quran and ensure they are doing it right.

Yes, but I don't like how you keep stressing that the majority rule is right in the scholars. That is not true, not shall it ever be true. The majority rule according to the world scholars is Christianity.

Is there disagreement between scholars or people regarding evolution? No! So our duty is to obey those in authority among us.

Again, you adhere to a majority thing. It is a logical fallacy. You must go into my arguments and see the support the Quran has, rather than adhering to what the scholars say!

It just takes one verse: (Quran 64:3) He designed you and perfected your design 

That's it, there is no reason for any other debate. You were designed as something and that form was perfected. Not an instant creation!

You said Allah did not promise to protect unquranic hadiths. Again, wrong.

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian. (15:9)

The word for Quran here is "Dhikra" which includes both the Quran and the insipration given to the Prophet. That's why some of the translators translated it as:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). Yusuf Ali

Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian. Shakir

You have to see what the word Dhikra here is referring to. If it was referring to hadiths, then it would be a contradictions because hadiths have not been guarded from corruption.

Here is was Islamic-Awareness says about this:
The promise made by Allah(SWT) in Qur'an 15:9 is obviously fulfilled in the undisputed purity of the Qur'anic text throughout the fourteen centuries since its revelation. However, what is often forgotten by many Muslims is that the divine promise also includes, by necessity, the Sunnah of the Prophet(P), because the Sunnah is the practical example of the implementation of the Qur'anic guidance, the wisdom taught to the Prophet(P) along with the scripture, and neither the Qur'an nor the Sunnah can be understood correctly without the other. (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/hadsciences.html)

Yes, but the Sunnah has been shown to not be preserved and corrupted? It would be like Allah telling us that he would preserve the bible . Therefore, you must conclude that the reminder this verse was talking about is the Quran.

You said the Quran tries to support every belief. The Quran speaks the truth, despite it being wrong for someone or true for someone else. To prove this, I will use your example.

(And he is the one who created the night, daylight, sun and the moon, all swimming in an orbit). (Quran, The Prophets: 33).

Some decades before, the Sun moving was considered a scientific error. Now we know that it also moves (I think around itself, I'm not sure but I have read it somewhere and also Dr. Zakir Naik talks about it). So the Quran is the truth, even if it may not seem to someone. It doesn't neccesarily need to support every belief.

The Quran must support reality and 7th century belief simultaneously and that is what we see.

Allah says several times in the Quran tha the majority of people are wrong. But this does not apply when it comes to something that is consensus between muslims.

Brother, this consensus between Muslims does not hold any argumentative value! The majority of muslim scholars went to scholar schools which were biased against certain things like evolution in the Quran for example. It is no surprise they also hold that bias. But unfortunately, the Quran support for evolution is too strong. The best way to do this is to go to my arguments one by one and then we decide whether the Quran supports evolution. Adhering to the majority opinion means we should all become Christians.

Using your intellect to understand the Quran is wrong, and as I said, it was the main cause for so many sects to be formed. The solution is clear: humbling yourself, obeying the scholars, accepting the hadiths. This is the true Islam, which creates no confusion among people. I would never believe that Allah will leave such important thing unclear to us. I will respond to your arguments for evolution in the next post insha'Allah.

Completely disagree. I do not obey scholars, no shirk here.

Hello this is going to be a comprehensive post. So please take your time in reading.

Brother mclinkin94, as I have seen from your posts, you accept evolution and reject hadiths. My intention is not to look like a smart person, but I have a sincere advice for you.

For the record, Yes: I accept evolution due to a strong Quranic basis and the immense scientific evidence. After debate with the hadiths with other Muslims (yes, they won that debate with hadiths ), I have to admit that it would be dishonest to reject all hadiths. Therefore I support some of them, but I do not base my trust on them due to being intellectually honest. I say that some of them possibly have some truth to them--like the Bible. To my knowledge, this is the most reasonable opinion and I would say that many honest Muslims would have to agree.

As for the evolution, I won't bring evidence against it or argue whether it's true or wrong. I want to show you a norm according to which you should judge if something is true or false. Just think for a moment: wouldn't it be more logical to believe that what the majority of muslims believe is true (I'm talkig about important beliefs, not small practical issues)? Wouldn't it be more logical to believe that the most of muslims are in the right path (again, I'm talking about important issues, because I agree that the most of ummah today are not like they should be)? If we read, we will see that the majority of muslims are sunnis (75-90%). If we believe that the most of the ummah are true believers, wouldn't it be more logical to reject evolution?

The majority or minority of a belief does not interest me. The majority belief is Christianity, does that mean it is right? The majority belief back then was that the Earth is flat, does that mean that it is right? I support beliefs in which I think are rational and in which I can support through being intellectually honest. In which case I believe in Islam and I support evolution. It would be intellectual dishonesty to deny the Quranic support of the progressive creation of mankind.

Imagine the muslims from the time of Prophet, peace be upon him, until today being wrong about such an important belief, such as the way of creation. You may say that the early muslims didn't knew science. Yes, it's true. There were muslims, even islamic scholars who believed that Earth was flat etc, but those beliefs are unimportant that even the Quran doesn't talk directly about them. But, the issue of creation is different.

I think you just proved me right by saying that Early muslims believed the Earth was flat and that the sun moved around the Earth The Quran is meant to support 7th century belief and modern belief without contradicting either belief in which case it is a requirement for it to support beliefs like the Earth being flat and round. the sun moving around the Earth, the earth moving around the sun simultaneously. The same can be said about evolution.

Point 1: If God were to give a revelation to 7th century nomads it has to compel them and has to give them things to reflect upon so they believe in the scripture
Point 2: If that revelation is the final revelation and is supposed to compel people of the future, then that revelation cannot contradict reality that future humans will discover
Point 3: Therefore, the Quran MUST affirm 7th century belief without contradicting science.

And it must be sufficiently vague so that it doesn't compel those whose hearts are closed. (watch this video on this topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj4DS_QQYfo )

So yes, you find that in the Quran many words are purposely avoided or the Quran used alternate words so it could affirm 7th century beleif without contradicting (but supporting) science. So the Quranic scientific miracles have to be vague enough so they don't compel those whose hearts are closed and has to (at the same time) NOT contradict 7th century belief.

Here is one example:

(And he is the one who created the night, daylight, sun and the moon, all swimming in an orbit). (Quran, The Prophets: 33).

Notice how precise this verse was in its language at supporting 7th century belief (that the sun/moon move around the Earth) and modern belief (that the sun and the moon are both swimming in an orbit). You can see this throughout the Quran.

So in conclusion, the Quran is meant to support both beliefs. We are not to hold just 7th century belief like the creationist account especially if the Quran supports the evolutionary belief as well

You may say that the Quran supports evolution. I won't refute your claims, but do you know that using the Quran as the only source of argumentation can lead to disagreements on the most basic beliefs?

I will summarize my examples: (these are only brief and superficial summaries, my study on this topic has been very extensive)

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.
(Quran 71:14) God created you in diverse stages

Did the Quran mention the stages? Of course it did, It mentioned the Embryological stages (that I am sure you know about) and the Evolutionary stages.

(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has made everything He created BETTER, and He began the creation of the human (being) out of clay--> He made everything he created better. Evolution seems to explain the mechanism of perfecting God's creation. (Clay is a product of wet earth-Exactly what you are made of: Water and Earth.

What's even more fascinating about this verses is that Allah say he made all of his creation better from the original and he began the creation of a human. This verse is hinting at a connection. A connection that human beings were made through a process of evolving better than the original creation.

(Quran 32:--8) Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

^This verse comes right after the previous one. So AFTER human beings BEGAN forming,, our posterity comes from an extract of semen. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.

(Quran 32:9) Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

^AFTER Allah made sexual reproduction, he proportioned us and given us vision/hearing/consciousness.

Allah BEGINS the process of creation, lets sexual reproduction happen, and then we get proportioned and achieve higher consciousness. Aren't these verses clear in their support of gradual creation of humans? These are the stages that Quran mentions in 71:14 (as well as the embryological stages).

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(Quran 35:11) And Allah did create you from dust; then from a reproductive fluid; then He made you in pairs

^Here the Quran makes a very important point. This verse is stating the process of creation. We were first created from dust (a basic compound) then we were created from a reproductive fluid (This is signifying the creation of sexual reproduction), after sexual reproduction: we were created in pairs-male and female. This shows that Adam and Eve (the first humans of our kind that were sexually isolated from the other humans which we were descended), were created after the reproductive fluid. This also shows that the first humans that were like us were created from a reproductive fluid and not instantly as creationists believe. The process of formation involved simple compounds, then sexual reproduction was formed to allow us to form.

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(Quran 64:3) He designed you and perfected your design

^Human form went through a process of betterment or perfection. If this verse wanted to say that humans have a perfect design, it would have not been worded this way, thus, this verse is showing that humans were designed as something and our design (or form) was perfected.

(Quran 76:28) We created them and strengthened their forms. And when we please. We will substitute the likes of them by a change.

^Here, Allah has given us stronger forms. He created us and made us better. And when he pleases, he will substitute us by a creation with a change! How did God strengthen human's make? Could it be through evolution? If this verse should be interpreted otherwise, then why does it not simply state, 'It is We who have created them in a strong make,' instead of implying two separate steps and a time lapse? The same argument pertains to one translation of the following verse: 'He...designed you and (time lapse) perfected your design...' (64:3)
------

This is compelling evidence. If you chose to make excuses to these verses alone (there are many other examples), then you are intellectually dishonest.

The Quran is clear that ALL humans are made from Nutfah, that includes Adam:

(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance (Alaq or embryo).

(Quran 16:4) He created man from a sperm-drop;

^Unfortunately, to say that Adam is the exception would be making an excuse that manipulates the clear Quran. You must agree that Adam was created from a nutfah (reproductive fluid). 

(Quran 6.133) If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people.


Allah can get rid of Us and make another creature succeed just as he produced US from another people!

Note: The Quran specifically uses the word "Whatever" or "What" ("ma" in Arabic ما). This Arabic word "ma" cannot refer to humans; this word is strictly reserved for non-humans (the Arabic word that does refer to humans is "men من", meaning "who" or "whoever" but it was not used here). This verse says that if God wishes He can make our descendants nonhuman just like our ancestors. Further this verse is referring to ALL of mankind (as Quran 6:130 shows in context). So all of mankind was produced from descendants of another people (hominids).

To further Clarify this point:

(Quran 43:60) And if we will, We could make angels from amongst you (minkum), succeeding each other on the earth.

^Again, a reference to Allah destroying Mankind through letting something else (angels) come amongst us and succeed each other on the Earth just as we (humans) came from another creature and succeeded after them (6:133).

Do you know that there are people who say alcohol is allowable in Islam? They also have proofs from the Quran, the difference is they interpret it another way (I have the link, but I don't want to share it). So, what we should do on such important issues is to see what Prophet Muhammad and his companions believed, then what scholars, sunni scholars say. This leads to the second belief, belief in hadiths.

Unfortunately, there are some people who say alcohol is allowable in Islam. that is because of excuse making and manipulation of the verse that clearly says NO intoxicants. I would say that it would be manipulation of the Quran to say that Adam was not created through a process or his creation didn't involve a reproductive fluid.

The most illogical belief a muslim can have is to reject the hadiths.

I think, considering how many of them contradict each other including the Quran, that it would be illogical to unconditionally accept hadith. Rather, you have to do a systematic study on them. Like we said before, the Quran has multi-layered meanings, some for the people who gain knowledge in the future as the Quran states in 3:7.

Brother, I don't want to insult you, but Islam is unimaginable without the Sunnah. Use the same standard here: wouldn't it be more logical to believe that hadiths were preserved, if muslim scholars for 1400 years believed they were? If we assume that evolution is true and reject hadiths, how can Allah let muslims in such errors for 1400 years?

Yes brother, at one point I declined all hadiths, but now I do not  decline all of them. it wouldn't be logical to believe that hadiths were preserved, because they are not and contain contradictions. http://asimiqbal2nd.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/contradictions.pdf

Please brother, repent to Allah, I'm glad you are a convert, repent to Allah because if you believe in evolution and reject hadiths, according to all of the scholars of Islam, you are not a muslim. Does not Allah command us in the Quran to refer to scholars? If by their agreement, a person who rejects hadiths and believes in evolution is not a muslim, wouldn't it be more logical to stop believing on them? Please brother, this is something serious.

I do repent to Allah and pray for guidance. There isn't a bone in my body that rejects the Quranic support for evolution. I have studied it and I came at it.

I came to Islam the same way, through reasonable rational intellectual honest understanding. I cannot manipulate the Quran to support instant creationism and expect to remain intellectually honest.

As you have seen before, I have debated on the topic of Hadiths. I have found my error and I have corrected it. that is because the most important quality of any belief is intellectual honesty. I am willing to change my beliefs because I remain honest with my beliefs. Islam is an extremely powerful religion and it is absolutely beautiful. I would hate to see it manipulated just because of some unwilling scholars or Muslims.

This is something serious, my beliefs hold. The Quranic account for creation with a process is explicit, the only way to deny it is through direct manipulation, adhering to faulty hadiths, excuse making or intellectual dishonesty.

I want to make it clear that irrespective of my support for hadith or not. There is uncertainty as Allah did not promise to protect non-quranic hadiths, instead he asks us to produce our proofs first. But regardless, I still follow the Sunnah to the best of my ability because there is still uncertainty as to whether the prophet said it or not. I want to make it clear though that I follow the Sunnah that don't contradict the Quran. The current method of prayer is fine. The Quran mentioned prayer 3 times a day, but it doesn't hurt me to pray 5 times. etc.

Allah says in the Quran: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. (4:59)
If Allah commands us to refer to scholars, then even if they are wrong we won't be judged or punished because we acted upon the law, so the scholars consensus "possesses universal expertise" acording to the Quran, even if they might be wrong

I wanted to add something to your understanding of that verse. Allah commands us to refer to those in authority over us. and if we disagree over anything we refer it to Allah and to the Messenger. Currently, the messenger is not with us--so the part of the verse dealing with the messenger is not applicable to us--this was applicable to those who lived at the time of the prophet--(The Quran was designed for all times and places so it has verses applicable to us and verses not applicable to us--like the war verses about the meccans).

Notice that the Quran does not prohibit disagreement with the authorities. If we disagree with the authorities (whether they are military authorities or scholars), we must refer to Allah, through what?

-Through prayer
-Through his revelation (the Quran)

So if scholars and I disagree, we refer our understanding with the Quran, and that is exactly what I am doing now.