Answering Christianity Research Center

AsalamuAlaikum,

Im a bit confused why Surah 32:7 is being discussed. It just says Allah made creation good???


32:7
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الَّذِي أَحْسَنَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقَهُ ۖ وَبَدَأَ خَلْقَ الْإِنسَانِ مِن طِينٍ


32:7
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Sahih International
Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
Muhsin Khan
Who made everything He has created good, and He began the creation of man from clay.
Pickthall
Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay;
Yusuf Ali
He Who has made everything which He has created most good: He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay,
Shakir
Who made good everything that He has created, and He began the creation of man from dust.

It does just say that Allah made creation Good.

We are debating whether this means that:

Allah's creation is Good.
or
Allah's creation was made good after its initial design

Through support of other quranic verses and the contexts of that verse (read my previous post), I support the latter view that everything in which Allah has created was then made Good.

Further, the Sahih international translation you posted up there uses the word "perfected" so those scholars agree with the latter too.

We need to determine what is the more probable explanation, and in my defense, the context and the verses right after tell me that humans were made better. First there was a stage in which we were nothing more than an extract of clay (32:7), then we were sexually capable (32:8), then we were fasioned and proportioned and given higher consciousness (Quran 32:9). The later stages are better than the preceding ones, this also favors the interpretation that this verse is saying that Allah makes creation better.

Further, even if we look at the embryology, you see stages in which Allah makes humanity better than the preceding stage.

(Quran 23:14) Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah , the best of creators.

This "another creation" was it made better than its original forms? Yes, it was made better. This also supports the latter interpretation of 32:7. So Allah is he who makes everything he created better. Quran 23:14 shows you an example of how this happens and Quran 32:8-9 show you another example.

You can accuse me of running away as much as you like . We all saw how you didn't respond to the points I mentioned .

Which points? I responded to all of them except the ones where you are sarcastic and insult. Please post the points again.

Since you started making new misguiding claims , I'll have to respond again in this new topic .
First of all , you're not the one to tell us so . It is known before you or your 10th grandfather were born that whatever contradicts Quran in a way that cannot be explained is immediately discarded .

The claims were not misguided. Are you seriously comparing the authenticity of hadiths to the Quran?

Secondly, I love your next point, we should discard hadiths that contradict the Quran. Then we got a LOOONG way to go in discarding Hadiths. We can start with the Apostasy ones, the music ones and 'grow your beard ones' and of course the ones that go against evolution  :D.

And I would say that you don't really follow logic , you follow desire . You see something you don't like in Hadith and just decide to deem it wrong and corrupted while the problem actually lies in you . Anything you try to bring will prove this . So again , get over yourself . This arrogance you hold is deadly .

If I follow what I desire, I wouldn't have ever became Muslim. Trust me on that point.

I follow what is reasonable. Chinese whispers are not reasonable to follow.

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Further Quran 19:101 has said Muhammad doesn't know who the hypocrites were at his time. Nowhere does the Quran say that Muhammad was successful at finding all hypocrites. And if by chance, he was, when the prophet died--how exactly did he fight off the new hypocrites that carry on the hadiths?? Ironically at least two Sahih Hadith in the Muslim's compilation confirm this by admitting to 12 hypocrites masquerading as companions and who's identities were never revealed.

You can never prove what's underlined . The sign says that the prophet didn't know them when the sign was revealed . And we have verses ordering the prophet to fight the hypocrites . So rationally , if he's going to fight them , he necessarily knows them . The story of Huthaifa the son of Yaman confirms this as the prophet told him about the their names and so he wouldn't pray on them the same way the prophet wouldn't . And Quran who's innocent of you says :

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Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest

The believers are only the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah . It is those who are the truthful.

Firstly, You have failed to show that Muhammad has dealt with all of the hypocrites at his time. Secondly, and even more importantly, you have failed to show that Muhammad has dealt with all the new hypocrites that came after he died.

What argument do you really hold? Just more excuses.

For the poor emigrants who were expelled from their homes and their properties, seeking bounty from Allah and [His] approval and supporting Allah and His Messenger, [there is also a share]. Those are the truthful.

Allah himself said he's pleased with the believers and calls them truthful . Enough said . And in the chapter of the people of Umran

Hypocrites =/= believers.

It says that Allah wouldn't leave people in their state until the evil is known and good is known .

So , considering the last points , the prophet did know the hypocrites because :
1 - Nothing says he never knew them until he passed away .
2 - There are signs saying Allah is pleased of the believers whom you hate so much .
3 - There's a verse saying that Allah will reveal the evil and good and tell his prophet .
4 - There are signs telling the prophet peace upon him to fight the hypocrites and to never obey them meaning that he must have known them .
Therefore , saying that the companions are hypocrites = A failing attempt to make us drop half our religion .

1.) Nothing says the prophet dealt with All hypocrites--he did do an effort of course
2.) Again, hypocrites are not classified as believers. People who fake being believers are hypocrites.
3.) Now, you bring up a good point here!  Indeed Allah does distinguish the good from the bad and he definitely has aided Muhammad and us, but again, I ask where does it say that all the hypocrites past, present and future have been dealt with. Especially the ones who write hadith?Further, this verse is probably better understood by saying that Allah will actively continue revealing the hypocrites to us. This is a continuous process! This shows that not all hypocrites are being dealt with at once, rather Allah has done so once in the battle of Uhud and he will continue to do so today. It is a continuous process. So all the hypocrites have not really been dealt with.
4.)Indeed there are some companions who were truthful and probably have said good things, but it is obvious by reason and the Quran that there are hypocrites among them.

Ironically your own sources, support my point

Ironically Bukhari's own report clearly points to this fact especially after his, Prophet's Pbuh demise:

Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "Some of my companions will come to me at my Lake Fount, and after I recognize them, they will then be taken away from me, whereupon I will say, 'My companions!' Then it will be said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you."
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76, Hadith 584

Did the disc brake or what ? "Unwilling , unwilling , unwilling , unwilling" . You think that just by saying this , you make a strong argument . Sure , I also describe you with what's actually in you but I do bring things to prove it . As for the site , it says "made good" . NOWHERE does it say "Made it better" as you lied about Quran and made a completely new verse . And when I mentioned the sandwich example which explains how you don't just misunderstand but insist on misunderstanding , you shoved it off as if it's nothing . So , Arabic is against you , English is against you , and mathematical logic is against you . What do you got ?

Unwilling really is the best word for this type of dishonesty.

Again, I have explained why it says "made better". IF you make good everything that you created, what did you do? You made it better--that is a simple line of reasoning. Further, you disregarded the verses after it that further demonstrate that creation was made..better.

Further I have given you 2 more verses that show this point:

Quran 40:64 [Allah] formed you THEN (fa) made good your forms
Quran 64:3 formed you then (fa) made good your forms

In arabic (waaw) translates as "and". Thumma and Fa both respectively translate as Then. Fa also carries a meaning of 'thus'. So lets think about it. You were designed..Time lapse..then your design was made good.

Was made good. Meaning made better than the initial. Its not rocket science. But it is "unwilling''.

In Quran 32:7 if Allah wanted to say that creation is good, why did he word it in that way implying that creation was MADE good through a process??

The sandwhich example was nothing more than an appeal to ridicule, I had no idea that you actually meant something like this. I cannot believe I have to even address it.

Firstly, if I say that I made the sandwhich then I made it good (as the Quran says about creation), That means I improved upon the sandwich.

The reason why your sandwhich Analogy fails is because you use the word "good" as a descriptive adjective! In the Quran it is a VERB. . You can verify it by going to the word for word translation.

You said "I made this sandwich and I made this sandwich Good". The word good you used here is an adjective. Rather the better sentence is that " I made better this sandwich".

The verb Better is defined as "to make good or to improve". The Arabic verb Ahsana means the verb "to make good", it is not an adjective.

The problem with using the word 'good' is the English language. Good isn't and cannot be a verb. A word that means to make good that is a verb is 'better'.

In fact, Sahih international translated 32:7 as Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

Perfected: Make something BETTER.

 Now, you are suggesting that the Quran says in 32:7 that creation is Good. If that was the case, why didn't the Quran simply say "Who creates everything Good" or "Everything is created Good" instead of saying "I have made good/better everything which I created" or "I have perfected everything which I created".



Personally, I feel like this verse is clear, in fact you should read the verses after, they describe HOW Allah has made humanity better! First Allah began the creation, then he made sexual reproduction, then he further proportioned us (made us better from the beginning state of creation mentioned in 32:7).

Keep this testimony of yours to yourself . I asked many religion and language teachers at my school and they all said that it means to make something good . When I asked them "Can it possibly mean to make creatures incomplete and then make them better ?" they denied giving me strange glares as if I just said a bad joke .

So it looks like they agree that it means to make something good/better as a verb. But they, like you, are raised denying evolution in their culture so they deny.

You need to drop these dangerous ideologies you hold . OR make a new sect for yourself where there's no proof of God and we still blindly believe in him , where this God has no characteristics , where the prophet of God failed to set the nation on the right path and it was lost in corruption until some genius showed up and discovered what it didn't , where there is no way for us to know a single thing about history since we dropped the only way to know it , a sect where we can't prove that there was ever a man called Muhammad .

I think quite the opposite, you need to make a new sect or redefine whatever sect you are in as "non-Quranic".

There is NO proof of God. I said before and I will say it again. The Quran does not give proof, it gives ayats!

Please read this: I'm still working on it, it has a lot more to God

http://answeringislamicskeptics.weebly.com/wiki-islam-debunked.html

There are things the prophet himself didn't know about the Quran. For example, its numerical consistency (esp. with the number 19) was never once mentioned by him anywhere. The Quran has things for people of the future too and not applicable to Muhammad.

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The 99.9% non verbatim impossible to verify reports are the real issue.

They are only impossible to verify to you . This twisted way you follow also says to deny the entire history because we can't make verify anything at all . Anyone can claim that everything written in history was corrupted and made out of conspiracies . And because you follow your selfish desire , you only discard Sunnah which seems to oppose what you prefer .

Anyone can also claim that was written up in history is true and follow their selfish desire..

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And no it is not a satisfactory state of affair to claim that dozens of "scholars" have declared these reports authentic. In a Taqleedy (to accept without questioning) system it is not difficult to cite dozens of scholars photo copying the work of each other.

Funny , I was reading a book talking about this mentality . What's more funny is that the writer was answering Richard Dawkinz . I guess it's true , similar birds are indeed attracted to each other .
In the book , he mentions how Dawkinz denies a certain incident witnessed by millions of people who saw the sun falling on Earth . He can't deny it . The ones who saw it passed it to the ones after them , and the ones after them passed it to the ones after them in a way that it can't be forged or conspired . Of course , what the people saw wasn't the sun literally falling on Earth , still , you can never deny that they saw the incident .
That's how it was with Sunnah , the prophet peace upon him passed his teachings to the companions whom Quran tells us were truthful and honest . If you want to ignore Quran here because it doesn't suit you , it's your own business . After that , the companions passed them on to the followers . Moreover , even during the time of the prophet himself Hadith was recorded by his order and then after he passed away . What scholars did was using the logical ways Quran mentioned to determine the right from wrong . They wouldn't accept even the slightest possibility that a person would lie even to an animal . Such a thing will make them discard him immediately . And you try to compare this study to a school game - O one who has no shame - and say that there is NO WAY these people remembered every word of what they were told . The simple fact that there are 5 years old during these days memorizing Quran proves you wrong . This is in our days , so what do we say about the prime of the Islamic nation when it wasn't difficult for anyone to remember a poem of 200 parts ? So when you try to make it look like some hypocrites showed up suddenly hundreds of years ago and decided to forge Hadith it's actually out of ignorance of what really happened or stubbornness .
Again , bluffing does nothing .

Its funny how far you went to avoid my point, rather than refuting them, you just called me a conspiracy theorist and said my mindset was awful.

Further, I deny things that are illogical. The sun falling on earth would not make the Earth survive, so I deny it. Simple as that.

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No don't pretend to be angry answer the question. We are not insulting the companions; we are trying to identify the hypocrites among them

Yes you are insulting them and yes it's vulgar . Allah tells us that he's pleased of them and the prophet peace upon him favors a group of them for their faith and morals and willingness and you say that maybe they were "Kuffar" !? What would you feel if I say so about you ? I can easily do so and you can't blame me .

If you think what I said is vulgar, then you must think what the Quran said was vulgar too? Because I didn't say anything, the Quran did.

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How did Bukhari go through 600,000 reports without making a single mistake?

First of all , just because you can't , it doesn't mean others can't . Talking about emotions ? Well , here you are rejecting this simply because you think it's not possible . Maybe you'd deny someone memorizing the entire Quran as well because you think it's impossible . Let me tell you this : It doesn't go the way you like or dislike .
Secondly , Bukhari did make a number of mistakes and so did other scholars . But to claim that they ALL didn't notice forged hadith or sayings , you're then trying to make fun of our intellect and of an entire nation going from the first day of revelation until now after over 1435 years . The entire nation cannot agree on something false .

Its not impossible to memorize the Quran. It is impossible for a human to not make mistakes.

They ALL probably didn't notice forged hadith sayings or mistakes in them because they came from companions they thought were good, but they were really hypocrites.

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Why are these reports not verbatim if they were transmitted by the same people who gave us the 100% verbatim Quran?

The noble Quran is to be kept the same alphabet by alphabet . Allah says so . Sunnah on the other hand is the second source of teachings as it is also a revelation . When it comes to Sunnah , it is the meaning which is kept the same . And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that except for you . a few words with the same exact meaning can be different , a companion may have heard a part from the prophet but not the rest because he left or any other reason , a companion may have seen a part of an incident and the other saw another part and the third as well , nothing's wrong with that at all . If so , bye bye history . Forget history , we won't be able to claim that anything said about someone is true because the word "and" is missing from the story telling of a person and exists in the story of the other ,  or maybe the other one corrupted what the first has said and added "and" .

I think you would make a fine Christian. Putting excuses.

The bible was 'inspired' by God. The hadiths were 'inspired' by God. Although the bible has a lot of corruptions, its basic meanings are intact. Although the hadiths have had many corruptions its meanings are intact.

A companion may have also made a big mistake. Have you ever played the telephone game when you were younger? How often is the message at the end the same as the first?

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Why are so few reports credited to the Prophet's closest companions?

Hold it , come again ? Either I misunderstood or you just made one big fat lie .

Not a lie at all.

Well , my little cousin used to look at me and say "Why do you tell me to eat with my right hand and you're eating with the left ?" and I answer "It IS my right hand ! It's only your left . If you come here and turn around it will become your right" and he does and then opens his mouth in amazement saying that I can never explain to him how this mysterious phenomenon happens . Guess what happened one year later . On the other hand , I have questions disproving your way which you haven't answered in two weeks or so . Compare this to me answering you right away . I'll copy them - again - at the end of this reply .

Post those questions I haven't answered again, I'm pretty sure I have addressed all of them.

And I proved to you time and time again that Quran has nothing to do with this ideology . So stop with bluffing , it's really getting ridiculous . We were one sign out of many which you misquote and alter and you still can't see how you brought what contradicts your argument . If this one single point was so fruitless that I keep repeating and you keep ignoring then a question rises about your honesty and your ability to understand outside what you're forced to believe because "Scientists" said it's right .

Here we go again. I have not misquoted, you did, I have shown earlier.

Secondly, irregardless of what you believe about evolution, we are debating the Quranic support. Evolution science itself does not matter, does the Quran support it or not.

Further, scientists didn't only say its right, they actually provided tangible evidence.

Quran , Sunnah , and science , all of them step on this hypotheses - Yes , I dared and called it so - and prove it wrong all the time . You fail to show a single sign supporting it , you fail to disprove Hadith which discredits it , and the entire gang of evidence-faking pseudoscientists fail to prove evolution and so they judge that whatever happens is because of evolution . 

Wow, extreme level of dishonesty here. Either that or just plain ignorance.

I swear with the almighty Allah the lord of the great throne and heavens and Earth and what's between them that's you are the one being either dishonest or lying or biased . I said it and I'll say it again : Bluffing does nothing . All these emotional attacks you make on me backed up by nothing are also nothing . I am being honest . The one who's not honest is the one who fears dealing with what contradicts what he wants to believe . Trying to make it look like I blindly follow scholars and say evolution is wrong because they say so is cheap . I believe it's wrong because I saw and keep seeing evidence it's wrong .

Good. I do not do emotional attacks that much, rather I reply to yours with like nature. .

Forget about the science of evolution for a temporary time. Investigate the Quranic support.

Yes I answered your false explanations both logically and literally . I showed you that "Make good" doesn't in any world mean "Make something better after it was incomplete" . You are the one trying to make his way through this by spamming "You're dishonest , the sign is clear , I give a word for word translation" . And since it's become so pointless to keep going like this , further repentance might make me stop in this subject and just focus on defending Sunnah from your allegations .

And you have not answered them logically or literally!

NO what you did was change the part of speech of Good!

If I make something that I made good. What did I do? Do I even have to repeat it?

Here is a pen. I created it. Then I made it good. What did I do to the pen?

at this point, I hope you aren't being dishonest. I will hope, just ignorant or ignorantly dishonest. A word for word translation is crucial. I didn't like how you just rejected it.

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So if you are to say that the Hadith rejects evolution and we should therefore change the interpretation or meaning of the clear Quran to match Hadiths, then you are just plain wrong.

We don't need to change anything . It is you who needs to change his false ideology and abandon false interpreting of the noble Quran .

And that is what we will debate, If the Quran supports evolution--you have no choice but to discard those hadiths that reject evolution. I will show you. You need to present Quranic verses against evolution and I will continue with its support.

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Let us begin

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I have shown you already what Quran 32:7 has told us. Creation was perfected, improved upon, made better, made good. It is a form IV verb.

This is also demonstrated in 2 verses I have mentioned earlier

Ex. Quran 40:64 formed you then (fa) made good/better your forms. Further, the word fa here can be used denoting an brief period of time. So it seems as if this verse is telling us that quickly after the initial form of human creation it was made better. This seems to really correspond to our understanding of evolution becuase immediately once the first cell formed it goes through the mechanisms of evolution and thus the ones that survive or get more complex are made better. Secondly, fa can also be used as "thus" linking the two entities. So Allah formed you thus made your form better! This means that Allah has formed you initially in a creation that allows your form to become better/made good. This also seems to be a support for evolution as if we were formed through this process, it would allow us to improve in our creation. Thirdly many translate the word "fa" as And. Again, there is a thing with using 'And' as it separates formation from making formation better. It seems like it provides a time lapse. Why didn't the Quran just somehow tell you that your form is Good rather than implying that your form was made good after it was formed? If you would like to argue that the Quran could use different words to say the same thing, I would immediately say that saying it the way it did in 40:64 is very different from saying "creation is good", then I would say that this is repeated in another verse too (as demonstrated earlier)--so why did the Quran word the same thing the same exact way in two separate verses?! Obviously it wants to tell you that mankind's creation was made through a process.

You swore no dishonesty. I want to see your answer here.

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Further, I just have a question to you. Allah many times in the Quran has told us many types of creation and how everything was made through a process (Quran 32:7-9 is one example we used) on how the creation of the universe took 6 periods involving stages on how Allah spread out the creation of the universe and how Allah spread out the Earth and how Allah has given us stages in our embryological development. Why would Allah all of suddenly stop forming things by stages and decide to make humans instantly and without stages? Everything that was created was by stages, except humans? What exactly is your answer to that?

Even Jesus's creation--A miraculous birth similar to Adam (Quran 3:59)--involved stages.

How about the fact that the Quran has made it plainly clear that humans were created in stages:  (Quran 71:14)  God created you in stages and how the Quran highlights those stages as being embryology and evolutionary  (Quran 32:7-9, 35:11 etc.)
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Okay, so let us not resort to anything else. Not Hadiths, not even the scientific evidence for evolution. The Question is, does the Quran support the basic idea of gradual creation of humans. This answer does not depend upon hadiths nor modern science. It is purely Quranic.

So to make it even, empty your bais for Hadiths rejecting evolution and I will empty my bais for the scientific support of evolution. This should level everything out.

Whenever the issue of the authenticity of reports ascribed to the Prophet of God Pbuh are raised, the sects keep bringing up verses of the Quran to try and prove that we are supposed to follow what the Prophet Pbuh said.


Why do they have to be reminded again and again that that is not the issue? There are no two opinions on this particular issue.


The 99.9% non verbatim impossible to verify reports are the real issue.

And no it is not a satisfactory state of affair to claim that dozens of "scholars" have declared these reports authentic. In a Taqleedy (to accept without questioning) system it is not difficult to cite dozens of scholars photo copying the work of each other.

And no it is not enough to say it is very complicated to explain how these scholar clones go about determining the authenticity of a report.

Simplify it.

Above all back the tall claims associated with these secondary sources.

How did the compilers of these reports for instance know which companions were hypocrites and which were not? Quran 9:101 is clear on the issue, not even the Prophet Pbuh knew.

No don't pretend to be angry answer the question. We are not insulting the companions; we are trying to identify the hypocrites among them

How did Bukhari go through 600,000 reports without making a single mistake?

Why are these reports not verbatim if they were transmitted by the same people who gave us the 100% verbatim Quran?

Why are so few reports credited to the Prophet's closest companions?

And a dozen other impossible to answer questions.

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But the hadith story here is irrelevant. Leave that for another debate. The question here is: Does the Quran support the basic idea of evolution?

And through all the verses I provided, the answer is YES. Without a doubt. (If you disagree here, please post verses as to why and why I am wrong) Leave out ALL of the hadiths for now, leave out ALL of the rhetoric and fallacies. And just for a limited time, leave out your scientific reasons to reject evolution. Just present verses. If you cannot and every-time you do I answer you logically, I expect honesty! Nay, I BEG for your honesty! Then we can decide whether the Quran does or doesn't support evolution, irregardless of hadith or whether you think evolution is true. That is how we can remain honest. I swear to Allah that I have been and will continue to remain honest. I need you to do the same, swear here under oath. Allah does not like liars.   We both will be honest completely. Further, you need to drop all of the bias and just be unbiased and neutral to everything.  The Question is: Does the Quran support the basic idea of evolution?, This is to be answered irregardless of whether you think it is true or not.

Now, you haven't refuted those verses logically at all. Rather, you just claim that I am ignorant in the Arabic language despite giving you clear word for word translations to an Arabic speaker like yourself.

So if you are to say that the Hadith rejects evolution and we should therefore change the interpretation or meaning of the clear Quran to match Hadiths, then you are just plain wrong.

Assalamualykum can somebody help me understand the alleged contradiction between surah 14 ayah 4 which states that all messengers are sent to the people of their language and other verses in the qur'an that say prophet Muhammad was sent to all mankind.

Firstly, there is no contradiction (and I will explain why).

Secondly, I completely disagree with black-muslim on this one. This verse did not specify whether it was before or not. This verse just says that all prophets that were sent were sent in a specific language to guide their nation, this verse includes Muhammad! Lets not be dishonest, we cannot be defenders of faith if we become dishonest like our Christian counterparts.

The Quran makes it clear that:

(Quran 3:3-4) And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel before as a guidance to mankind

(Quran 28:43) And We gave Moses the Scripture, after We had destroyed the former generations, as enlightenment for mankind and guidance and mercy that they might be reminded.

Conclusion: So even though Moses and Jesus were sent to their people initially, they were also sent to all of mankind. Just like Muhammad, he was sent to his people initially, but he is also sent to ALL of mankind.

So lets not add meaning to the verse:

Quran 14:4 And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of his people to state clearly for them

^All this verse is saying is that all messengers were sent in the language of his people to state clearly for them the message. The verses after talk about the previous messengers and how they were sent to their peoples. Do not add meaning to such a verse. 

Were the messengers sent to their people: YES (ALL of them were)
Were the messengers sent to mankind: YES (ALL of them were)
^So both statements are valid. Simple as that.

Side note: the Quran is also clear that the Torah and the Gospel are no longer a guidance to mankind and that the Quran is the new guidance because the gospel/torah were corrupted:

Quran 5:15 O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.

I've ignored most of the rhetorical nonsense. I will respond only to the Quranic evolutionary points due to a lack of time.

Why do I feel like I'm dealing with a kid ? The same translator you brag about shuts your argument ! Are you really blind or what ?! And instead of ranting "I made an argument that you can never address" why not actually try ? And I DON'T care what kind of a translator you bring . On what basis do you say this site isn't biased or wrong at all ? You accused the first scholars of so and now you act like these are angels ?! What makes it worse is how you disprove yourself with what you bring ! There is no difference between this and saying that I should believe evolution because "Scientists" believe in it . The same way Atheists say we should be so because there are Atheists among scientists . 

First rhetorical statement denied. The translation I use did not shut my argument, in fact--nothing so far from you has.

Next rhetorical statement denied.

You should care what translator I bring. An arabic speak like yourself should be able to see the word for word translation. This thing with denying that translation is nothing more than a defense mechanism on your part. You are choosing to willfully deny the clear quranic basis for evolution. I'm not sure how much patience I have for this game.

Other rhetorical statements denied.

THAT'S THE POINT ! Do you really fail that horribly in understanding or are you acting like you don't understand ?! I bring you signs saying that the prophet DID know the hypocrites as Allah told him and I get this in response ? YES , you ARE accusing them all with hypocrisy since you say we can't trust any of them . The funny thing is , since we can't trust them , anyone can say they corrupted Quran . Another point killing your doctrine of rejecting Hadith and you still don't answer .

Muhammad did not get to know all the hypocrites. Not one verse says that. Muhammad with the aid of Allah investigated. That does not mean he was able to erradicate all hypocrites. Lets not change verse meanings here.

We have Quranic manuscripts, that's all we need to know.

Rhetorical statements denied once again.

You really need serious treatment . I don't know if it's blindness or madness of greatness - you wish - or something else . What logic are you talking about ?! The sun can be green with your logic ! I might lose my mind trying to reason with you !
Your line of thinking is completely misleading and twisting the meanings . Are you that much a coward not to answer a verse of the same book you - unjustly - claim to follow ? Quran itself says that Allah told the prophet of the hypocrites . So yes , Allah doesn't lie , but YOU LIE .

More rhetoric. I read a verse to you and you deny a Quranic verse? I don't like to deny the Quran.

You should be arrested for trying to make fun of people's intellect . Already explained , you don't just reject Sunnah , you even reject what you don't like of Quran .

Ironic coming from you.

I'll use your same logic and say that I don't trust this site - which actually works against your belief - because I can't know who's a Muslim and who's a hypocrite . How can we ever know that there are any Muslims ? Maybe I am one of the hypocrites . Maybe Osama is . Maybe you are . Of course , I'm just talking while standing from your point . Screw the translator . You rejected greater and more trusted sources . But of course , you'd do anything possible to prove this madness .

Look at that, presented with proof and you being an Arabic speaker. Willful ignorance. I hope you can see yourself through a mirror.

You are given clear proof. You speak Arabic to verify the proof. You refuse to acknowledge the proof. You neglect your Arabic ability. Ironically, that is the definition of dishonesty. Like I said, I'm not very forgiving of dishonesty.

Oh really ? How come you failed time and time again in bringing a single verse saying so ? I'll repeat , you bring what proves you wrong !

More dishonesty.

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Seriously, how does someone interpret this: "(Quran 64:3) ..He designed you and made your design better.. (this is the literal word for word Arabic)" as Allah made our human design perfect. If this verses wanted to say that, then it would have said "He designed you good" Rather then "he designed you and made your design good". Do you get the difference? And then you accuse me of changing the meaning of the Quran? What?

We're not to interpret this because it's simply NOT from Quran . You just forge verses too !
http://quran.com/64
"Hey Johny , make me a sandwich , and make it good will ya ?" Oh yes , if we go with you , it would mean that the sandwich evolved !!

Appeal to ridicule fallacy.

More rhetoric, introducing humor to a completely serious argument to reject the Quran. Dishonesty has reached a level worse than most anti-muslims. In fact, the team at Answering-Islam are less dishonest than you.

Lets go again:

(Quran 64:3) ..Formed you and made good your form..

Why didn't it just say, Allah made good your form. Rather it said, he had formed you and made that form good.

You need to be honest with yourself.

And again, the Quran repeated itself:

Quran 40:64 (He formed you and made good your form).

Now while you try to be honest, why would the Quran repeat the same thing exactly twice in the same manner. Why didn't it just say "Allah created us good". That is what you think it says, but it is clearly NOT.

Those verses are saying that your form was made good/better. But you like to reject the Quran, don't you?

Go to any Arabic speaker and ask what (ahsana) means. It means to make better, to make good from the original. But evidence doesn't convince the unwilling.

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Indeed mankind was created in the best of moulds/stature. Through what mechanism? Quran 32:7-9 highlight it. Through the mechanism of making creation better.

Oh no mister . You see , Quran says Allah "Created people in best shape" . It just says creating . No evolution here . Of course , this isn't the main argument I stand on but just to show you how it gets when we explain verses in the way you do by cutting them and making them however one likes .

Is this a debate or are you just going to reject everything I say without some reason?

Can you create through evolution? Yes. That's it. Not much to it.

You make something simple, complex. Interpret this verse in light of other verses.

Well crack that make-up more pal . I would be more comfortable if you come flat out instead of all this acting . Ignorance , huh ? Says the one who refutes himself and still says that what he refuted is right .

You make a claim without evidence. So I deny it without evidence. I have not refuted myself. You haven't refuted me either.

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Yes , humans are reminded over and over of how they are born and that they were nothing . It still doesn't change the fact that they were favored on the worlds . And trying to make it look like I refuse this myth because I think we're too high is a real cheap shot .

What exactly were you implying that humans were favored over the worlds? You obviously were saying that we are too high to have a common ancestor with monkeys.

Oh yeah ? they claim there is , so what do you say ? And to make it get to you , they mean that since the universes are infinite then they weren't created and there is no God . Of course , there is nothing to back this nonsense .
Quran talks about other universe yes , but you are not to witness them with your puny knowledge . If mankind and Jins could escape the heavens then let them try .

The Quran talks about other universes. Done. Nothing else to it.

Well , you also didn't study a thing in Islam , so you can't understand it . We only need someone to make a "You don't say" face here .
I do know of what you take as evidence for your doctrine . And I know enough to say that it's crap . The real dishonest person is the one altering Qruan here .

Factual error.

Noble or not , here we are arguing . And since you don't believe there is proof for God , go make your own religion !

We can debate this separately. I'm not fond of rejecting Quran like you.

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This is your weakest part of the argument. Read the verse again.  I cannot believe you actually made that argument. If I make something good after I created it, what did I do? I made it better. that is exactly what the Quran says.

Oh lord , give me strength !! How am I supposed to make it reach your thick skull ?! You first believed and then based your view of the entire universe on that false belief . That's how you fake evidence . You just decide that it's right . And when something appears which you want an explanation for , you just say "evolution" . The same as worship of gaps . If I was a language teacher I would give you minus 10 !  Since you do understand some Arabic , read this . If you still don't understand , there is no hope !
http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?idfrom=3477&idto=3477&bk_no=48&ID=2939

Rhetoric denied. False accusations denied.

Why didn't you just refute my argument? The verse is clear, you know it is. You just have some kind of complex where you always have to be right. The insecurity that is displayed is intense. I present a verse and I show you the Arabic.

Here is a word for word. You tell me I don't know Arabic. Here is also a lexicon I found on the web.

"Ahsana" means good. Lets look at the verse again:

Quran 32:7 Who made good (ahsana) everything which He created and began the creation of man.

Everything which was created was made good. Simple as that. Lets not add or delete any meaning to that verse. But, you can't do that, can you?

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You cannot just deny one part of the Quran and accept another. They all go together.

Say that to yourself in the mirror . You're the one who accused the companions thorough miserable explanation of one verse and STILL don't answer me bringing another verse blowing your argument .

You declined what I just said about evolution and you changed the subject to companions again. Why don't you address my arguments.

Did I accuse the companions or did the Quran. You know the answer. Leave this subject. Go back to evolution. Why are you reluctant to see the clear Quran? The divine Quran, not the man-made aspect of your faith.

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The links I brought are literal word for word translations. You know Arabic and you know better. The word-for-word understanding is important.
Again, you change the subject. It seems to be a mechanism to avoid my clear points. Again, I know deep inside you believe I am right on this one, you are just unwilling.

Pathetic indeed . So they are word to word translation ? So what ? That doesn't prove them right . And again , you don't answer the fact that they are against you .
And allow me to slap you out of your lala world once again . I know deep inside that you're plain wrong . You're the deluded one who thinks that he's right and the majority of people are unwilling . You're the one who think he's a genius who discovered what the entire Islamic nation didn't for over a thousand years . So enough with the drama and try actually answering something .

You deny the Quran. That does prove them right, you know Arabic. You know what the meaning of the verb "Ahsana" is. I know you do. But you are reluctant. Evidence doesn't convince the unwilling.

Then you again demean the translation. Irregardless of the word for word translation, you know Arabic. The word-for-word that I provided was to ensure you didn't overlook anything. But again, you deny it. The verse is clear, creation was made better. Done.

Then you commit the "appeal to tradition" fallacy. So, I deny that argument.

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That is the sad part. Denying a word for word translation of the Quran? You can go word for word. You know Arabic! Seriously, this is just dishonesty to a new level. This defense mechanism you use is simply not working for you, it does you no favor. Read the Quran word for word and translate it word for word. There are many lexicons you can buy, many websites you can use. The Quran is so clear on that, but you like you perverse it!

And what's your point after this wall of rant and whining ? Again - for over 9000 times - the same website you use is against you . And if we assume that it isn't , I won't trust it because there can be hypocrites among its admins . If you want to deem them as holy figures which never make mistakes or lie then you may just go worship them .

The same website is against, you! You have not shown me how this website is against me. You provided one verse that says humans were created in the best of moulds. And then you say that this verse denies another part of the Quran. You are implying that you believe that there is a contradiction in the Quran. I tell you that both those verses are accurate. Lets investigate again:

(Quran 95:4) We have certainly created man in the best of stature--Does this deny evolution? No. Does this deny 32:7 (if you say it does then you are implying a contradiction-but it doesn't deny 32:7)

By what mechanism was mankind created in the best of moulds/stature? By the mechanism of making creation better as detailed in 32:7.

And for this reason , for this headache , I stopped arguing with you before . I'm not even sure anymore if the most brilliant man on earth can ever make you understand ! A huge ego and arrogance alongside ignorance that doesn't lack in size as well . What a deadly combination ! I'll need a lot of aspirin if I'm to keep going like that . If the next post is the same avoidance of answering and ego boosting , I might just stop so that I can keep my sanity .

Yeah, the headache I give to you. I challenge your beliefs, and you like to hide from that. You are biased against evolution without evidence to back you up. You deny the clear quranic support by appealing to fallacies and more rhetoric.

Lets highlight it again and this time, I will present both the Arabic and the English. There cannot be any counterargument to a clear sentence. "If I say that cat is brown", Then I say that cat is brown.

Quran 64:3 وَصَوَّرَكُمْ فَأَحْسَنَ صُوَرَكُمْ ۖ

1st block: And he formed you
2nd block: And made good
3rd block: your forms.

That's it. We were formed and our form was made good. Denying this is dishonest. You know Arabic.

Not only did we get formed, but our form was made good/better.

Lets think one more time, If this verse wanted to say that Allah formed you Good, why didn't it just say "And Allah formed you good" rather than "ALlah formed you and made your forms good"?

Quran 32:7 الَّذِي أَحْسَنَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقَهُ

1st block: The one who
2nd block: made good
3rd block: Everything
4th block: He created.

That's it. Everything that was created was made good. Allah made everything he created good. If something that was created was made good. What was it made? Better, it was made better.

Not only that look at the entire verse!

Quran 32:7 Who made good everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

This verse is linking the process creation being made good/better to the creation of mankind. This is implying that mankind was formed in the same manner. A process of making creation good/better (ahsana). Not only that, that verse also uses the word for "BEGAN", this further implies the process of making everything Allah created better. So the creation of man from earth began and Allah will make it better to complete the human

Quran 32:8 Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained..

The verse right after says that AFTER the beginning of the creation of man, sexual reproduction formed. This is an improvement. A process of making creation better.

Quran 32:9 Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

After sexual reproduction, you got further proportioned (MADE BETTER!) and given higher consciousness (MADE BETTER!).




Having to break it down to this extent for you to understand is just....I don't know what it is. The best word is your blind unwilling nature.

assalamualykum
I hope y'all realize y'all are going in circles. Brother Black Muslim, the only thing that is contradictory with the ahadith is human evolution, all other forms of evolution are not contradictory with the ahadith. Anyways the evidence for human evolution is extremely weak. As for bro mclinkin their is no point of refuting harun yahya as his points are extremely weak. Also why do u keep ignoring my argument for the 100% authenticity of the sunnah

Extremely weak is an understatement! The sad part is Muslims are sourcing him as some kind of proof.

I am not ignoring your argument, I am further examining hadiths as we speak. 100% authenticity is not a fact, not so far to my understanding. Its like Christians claiming their bible has 100% authenticity even though it has clear contradictions within it and rejects reality!

Nope

Here's what's happening.

Man observes and through evidence discovers fossils that link man with other species.
Man observes and through evidence discovers common DNA that link man with other species.
Creationists read the Bible/Quran and for no reason just blindly accept what it says over the observable evidence.

The first 2 points you made were good. The last point is half correct. You should cross out the Quran and replace it with "hadith". Adding the word "corrupted" before them also reveals a fact.

Creationists read the corrupted Bible/Quranhadith and for no reason just blindly accept what it says over the observable evidence.