I'll make it quick and clear . The verb "Ahsana" in no world means to make something better where it's mentioned in Quran . If you ridicule the example of the sandwich , here's an Arabic one . "يا ولدي أحسن صنع هذه الجرة" = "O my son , make good this jar" . Your explanation is completely wrong . If the verb here means to be good at making the jar , or to make the jar in a good way . The jar doesn't even exist yet . He's "Yuhsinuha" while making it .
2 problems with your statement. First, explain why sahih international translated "Ahsana" as 'perfected' rather than good? Secondly, I have shown you in my previous post that irrespective of the translation the next verses either way show you that creation was made good through a process.
Further, look at the embryology verses:
(Quran 23:14) Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh;
then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah , the best of creators.
This, "new" creation, what is it compared to the others? IT was perfected, it was made better, it was proportioned.
So if you said: Oh brother, make good this jar. It could mean improve it, or build it good. But if you say: Make good this jar and begin its creation. Then you should put the molten glass into a tube and then wet the tube to make the jar and cover it up with the lid. What exactly just happened? You made the Jar good through a process.
What if I say, that I have made the sandwich
then I have made it good (as compared to how Allah said in 40:64 and 7:11). What did I do to that sandwhich? I made it better than its original. Now imagine, the word for 'made it good' can be validly translated as 'made it better' (as we have seen the Arabic word 'ahsana' can mean both). Which translation would you chose? Which translation makes more sense?
Indeed , I made a wrong choice of words . Father Adam - and not your buddy "Adam" - was formed out of the clay of Earth . STILL , I won't let you jump the gun and act like I admit evolution . The story of creating father Adam peace upon him is clear through Quran and Sunnah . Allah made him first of dust , then out of mud - dust with water - then out of clay - solid dry mud . And then a soul was poured into him . Iblees was ordered to bow down to him but refused out of arrogance . So he was cursed for and driven out of paradise . Father Adam and mother Hawwa peace upon the two of them lived in paradise comfortable and were ordered to not go near a certain tree or a type of a certain tree . Iblees provoked them into disobeying Allah and we know the rest . Nowhere is evolution mentioned .
We are debating whether humans were created gradually or not, read my previous posts. If the Quran says that humans were created gradually, then you can say that the basic idea of evolution (Gradual creation) is supported in the Quran. Then you could say that the Quran does not contradict evolution and you can be a Muslim believing evolution. Then you examine the science of evolution and determine whether it makes sense--you do this knowing that the Quran supports its basic idea.
But, good you are getting closer to the truth. But you also missed my point. Adam was also proportioned..meaning he was made through a process...AFTER sexual reproduction. Re-read 32:7-9. Adam was proportioned AFTER Allah created sexual reproduction. That was my point that you completely overlooked.
Now, there is no Quranic indication that Adam was first made of dust then clay...no! Clay and dust are metaphorical, they both symbolize basic compounds from the earth. Allah uses clay and dust and earth interchangeably to denote the same thing. That hadith interpretation is just what the Muslims back then thought. Further you forgot many other points in the creation of Adam. Adam was proportioned.
But you missed another point of creation. Adam was also proportioned/created in a process.
(Quran 7:11) And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind],
THEN given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.
Further, you also missed a large mistake in one place:
(Quran 35:11) And Allah did create you from dust;
then from a reproductive fluid;
then He made you in pairs
We were made in pairs after reproductive fluid. That means that Adam and Eve the first pair, were made out of what?
Further you forgot another point:
(Quran 71:14) God created you in stages Stages explained at:
Quran 32:7 Who made good everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.This verse is linking the process creation being made good/better to the creation of mankind. This is implying that mankind was formed in the same manner. A process of making creation good/better (ahsana). Not only that, that verse also uses the word for "BEGAN", this further implies the process of making everything Allah created better. So the creation of man from earth began and Allah will make it better to complete the human
Quran 32:8 Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.. The verse right after says that AFTER the beginning of the creation of man, sexual reproduction formed. This is an improvement. A process of making creation better.
Quran 32:9 Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.After sexual reproduction, you got further proportioned (MADE BETTER!) and given higher consciousness (MADE BETTER!).
Remember, you just
agreed that Quran 32:9's proportioning applies to Adam. So you must say that Adam was proportioned after sexual reproduction by sexual reproduction because Quran 32:9 used the word "then". In this case, you testify that Adam had a father. If Adam had a father and Adam is the human that resembled us in species and the first of our species, then you testify that Adam's father is not of the same form as Adam. His father was slightly different. If this is the case then you have just agreed with science!
(Note: Adam would be the father of the last group of humans who got sexually isolated from the other hominids).
Side note: the Quran affirms the existence of other hominids on earth before US!
Quran 10:13-14 And We had already destroyed generations before you when they wronged, and their messengers had come to them with clear proofs, but they were not to believe. Thus do We recompense the criminal people. Then We made you successors in the Earth after them so that We may observe how you will do.^This verse is addressing ALL of mankind. We ALL were successors after those criminal people in the Earth. To further prove this point:
Quran 2:30 when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successor[/u]
These two verses are complementary. Who were we succeeding in Quran 2:30? Other generations of hominids.
This is also further reiterated in this verse:
(Quran 6.133) If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people.So in the end Quran 32:9 makes it clear that Adam (we) descended from something as he was born through sexual reproduction.
Further this verse explicitly calls Adam a descendant.
(Quran 3:33-34) "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds. DESCENDANTS, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing"THE WORDS OF ALLAH ARE NOT CIRCUMSCRIBED BY TIME,
ALTHOUGH INTERPRETATIONS ARE... One may be inclined to question why no commentator of the Qur'an had in the past
written about any generation of "Mankind" living upon this earth before the creation of ADAM, in reference to the above quoted verses number10: 13 and 14 of the Qur'an?
ANSWER:
"For every (revealed) tiding there is a term set for its fulfillment
and in time you will come to know." Qur'an 6: 67."Now they have denied (the Truth); but there will come unto them tidings of the reality whereat they used to scoff." Qur'an 26: 6. TRADITIONAL BELIEVERS MAY SEEK TO DENY THESE
SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES...
A reader who is influenced by the age old traditional beliefs and/or by the popular Biblical Story of Creation that has found its place within the HADITHS (e.g. a questionable narration attributed the Prophet and compiled by Muslim under #039.6707 which records; Allah began the creation with clay on
Saturday and ended it with Adam on
Friday after the noon-prayer), may reject all the earlier presented arguments and claim; Allah had Created ADAM at the same time or rather in the same week, that He created every thing on this Earth. He/she may have no interest in pursuing scientific discoveries which in reality Glorify the Qur'an and conclusively prove that the Qur'an is not a copy of the Jewish/Christian Testaments.
So when 40:64 says" Allah formed you and then made good your forms, it is absolutely referring to Adam as well.
Considering how I explained what "Ahsana" mean , this point holds no value .
I have already shown you that others say that Ahsana means to improve and I have shown you the lexicons and everything. But not only that I have even went with
your translation to even show you how it even means. Fine, lets go with your translation (although I don't like it). Creation was made good...through a process. Still evolution was being pointed at.
So Quran 40:64 is IMPORTANT Because Adams form DID involve a process and WAS made better as I keep showing you verses about it.
.
I wasn't wiggling, I was demonstrating the problem with the english language not using the word "good" as a verb.
Fair enough . What would you say about the Arabic example ?
I say it doesn't matter, although I still like the translation of "better" better than "good". Either way, creation was made good/better through a process.
Further, irrespective of the translation, the verses after talk about HOW Allah made humans good--through a process. This is clearly showing that Allah is starting creation and then making it good/better. Quran 32:9 is the 'good' part. And it was better than the state of Quran 32:8 and that was a better state that he state of clay in 32:7.
Still with the fruit and tomatoes problem I see . I made my refutation to the underlined part . As for the rest , it's the same with sign 7 . You take it as that Allah couldn't make something perfect and needed to "evolve" it . Sign 8 says that the lineage - posterity - was later made out of measly water which is sperm . Evolution isn't mentioned here in anyway . All what the sign says is that after creating father Adam and mother Hawwa peace upon them , their children were then made to be born through the mentioned way . And if you try to oppose this and say "But the sign after it says that a soul was then blown into human so it can't mean the children" I'll need to correct you . It can . It can mean that after Allah made us to be born of the aforementioned way , we were to have souls poured in us and given our senses . And if it still means father Adam , still no evolution in the way you desire . It simply means that during forming father Adam - the way Quran and Sunnah say - Allah made his lineage to be formed in a different way than his own creation . In the end , no evolution .
It doesn't matter what Allah could or couldn't do, Allah creates in whatever manner he chooses and according to the Quranic verses, his creation involved a process. .
Further, this is an attempt from you to make the Quran conform to your pre-suppositions governed by hadiths. We have established that not all hadiths are true and we are to eliminate those who go against the Quran. So hadiths are constantly in question, we are not to just blindly abide by them. So please pretend you have never read any hadith before continuing. After all the Quran says it is fully detailed.
Yes verse 32:8 does say that posterity was made from semen. But you disregarded the verse right after it (Quran 32:9). AFTER sexual reproduction happened, we (including Adam) were proportioned and given higher intelligence. So this verse CANNOT be interpreted by saying that Only Adam's posterity was made from sperm. NO! Adam himself was made from it too! Notice the word THEN in Quran 32:9.
After sexual reproduction, Allah then proportioned Adam/humans and given us higher intelligence.
Why do I say that Quran 32:9 also applies to Adam, because Adam was proportioned and given form and given hearing and sight and (as you said earlier) given part of God's spirit! That is what Quran 32:9 says. There is simply now way out of this. Proof that Adam was proportioned and given a soul:
(Quran 38:71-72) And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: I am going to create a human (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.
(Quran 7:11) And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], then given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, Prostrate to Adam; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.So you must conclude that Adam was created after sexual reproduction by sexual reproduction. Do you get it, sorry for the bad wording! I hope you can see my reasoning.
So in the end, yes, evolution. It was in-fact beautifully worded and it was perfectly ordered. That is exactly how it happened! Humans were formed from the Earth, after a while creatures were able to sexually reproduce, through sexual reproduction more variation was able to form and thus this allows the higher improvement of the creatures so that it develops higher intelligence!
How ACCURATE this is is absolutely amazing! And you are desperately trying to take this miraculous verse and give it a different meaning besides its clear implication!
Allah BEGAN (bad'aa) the creation of humans. What does that by itself apply? By itself-it says that humanity was not an instant creation and involved stages! Further, I have researched this some more, many many arabic speakers even classical lexicons continue to agree that Ahsana used as a very means improved upon/perfected. Further it makes sense in the context of those verses. But I say again, irrespective of whether it means good/improved upon, it says that creation was made in stages.
Further there are many many verses that show that Humans (Adam included) were created from semen/embryo. This further proves my point:
(Quran 16:4) He created man from a sperm-drop;
(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from ALAQIs Allah ever short of words? He is clear, All of mankind was created from semen and ALAQ. This includes Adam.
Another point that proves my point:
(Quran 35:11) And Allah did create you from dust; then from a reproductive fluid; then He made you in pairsHumanity was made in pairs AFTER reproductive fluid creation. Who was the first pair to be like us? Adam/Eve. They were created AFTER and from a reproductive fluid.
To further prove my point the Quran says that:
Quran 3:59 Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.Was Jesus created instantly? NO. Even though Allah said "be and he was", Jesus was formed in the womb and developed as a baby. If this is similar to Adam, then Adam was created in stages too. Further, we also assert that Adam was also created in a womb. Further, we may also assert that Adam may have not had a father intervention. But either way, they were both created in stages.
So what does Allah mean in this verse when he says "Be and he was"? It seems to point to some kind of event happening at the womb, perhaps a genetic event, a mutation maybe? I'm not sure. We KNOW that Allah works through science, we observe it everyday.
But my point is, if Jesus' creation is that of Adam, and Jesus was created in stages, then Adam was too.
So there are 2 ways of interpreting that verse (32:7)
1.) Creation is Good (this verse is saying that Allah's creation is Good)
2.) Creation was made Good (This verse is not only saying Allah's creation is Good, but that it was made Good from its previous state--So everything that Allah has created, Allah has then made it Good.)
The question arises, which interpretation is best?
The context of the verse which deals with the steps of creation and how it was made progressively better than the preceding stage tells us that interpretation 2 is best.
The other quranic verses which mention that humans were made in stages, each stage more complex and better than the next (be it embryology of evolution) show to favor interpretation 2.
The fact that the Quran didn't simply state that creation is Good is also another favor to interpretation 2
Quran 40:64 and 64:3 say that we were formed and that form was then made good also favoring interpretation 2 of that verse
This is my rationale.
I'd have to say that your rationale isn't rational really . I already explained .
By simply saying that you already explained and then insulting my rationale that I
newly mentioned to you, you really didn't do anything. Its like you read it, and then you just disregarded it. Explain again. This thing you did is just to gain rhetorical power. It may be good for you or others, but not for me.
I also used my brother's account to ask this question in Y/A. Many have further said that 'Ahsana' means to improve upon. So this also favors interpretation 2 
http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AqWOQY04Rbwt86LHC.jFbcjAFQx.;_ylv=3?qid=20131106110058AAj2o8h
If you were really honest and looked at the other guy's answer , you wouldn't have said this . First of all I told you , saying "people agree with me" doesn't help you .
I looked at all answers. I never said people agree with me, firstly I showed you that sahih international worded this verse in a way that also supports me. You keep crying 'ignorance' whenever I make a point, so I simply showed you that I am not. If you even read further, you would have seen me say that both interprtations that "ahsana" either means creation is good or that creation was improved are valid because they are both valid meanings of the word. Further, I have shown the translation does not at all hinder Quranic support for gradual creation.
I keep repeating that irrespective of the translation it does not matter. Creation involved stages, simple as that. Read the verses after 32:7
It can mean to do a task well/best/perfect
which is what you totally ignore . Another answer says
Yes, more or less you are correct.
it is used in the Quran over and over again with this meaning attached to it.
it also is used to mean "who is better" i.e. "waman ahsanu"
meaning that the person doing this (whatever action the verse happens to be referring to, lots of verses say this) is among the best of people.
which means to make something "Better than others" . As in doing what you do better than what others would do . And the example he used goes according to what I just said . So no , he wasn't in agreement with you . And the one before the last one says
Close but not totally correct, make something better would mean hassana (same root)
ahsana would mean did a good job or did it well
it can also mean who is better. It depends on the sentence
which is 100% not in your favor !
Now you said that some of them are 100% not in my favor. Nope. Only one of the answers are not in my favor: This one would be to "reform".
The other ones work in my favor. Go back to the link. The best answer works to my favor. User: Runformylife has said that it could be used as a superlative. user:الأحبار, said that I am correct more or less--you said he is not in my favor, what? User: Radroud: (he is a Lebanese non-Muslim-good because he is unbaised) says that it may mean who is 'better'. So I have no idea how you said they are all against my favor. They all testify (except one) that it could carry the meaning of "better" or "improved upon". Further sahih international has used another
valid translation of 'Ahsana' which means to improve upon. So we are both right.
But, for the 6th time, It does not matter. But, just so that you don't think you walked out with triumph and start going throwing a rhetorical bomb claiming I am a Kaffir, nonmuslim, ignorant, I must show you you are wrong again.. Many in that said that it means to do good, to be better, to improve upon or to make well. That is what they all said. What does that tell you? It tells you that Ahsana is a general word that either means to make good or make better. And I keep saying that either way, the Quran supports creation with a process. Made good or made better, they are both valid. I feel that judging by the context,
better is the best translation. But, again, it simply does not matter and we really should have not been spending this much time on the same topic.
There are Muslims who follow their desires too . They are the same who deny the marriage of lady Aisha Allah be pleased of her because it doesn't suit their "tastes" . And no matter how much you prove to them that it's scientifically and historically OK , they'd still deny it because it's simply not going with what they like . Another example is of those who say that Jews and Christians will go to paradise because Allah is merciful . So yes , just being a Muslim doesn't mean a person never follows what he desires .
Another example is BlackMuslim who denies the Quran supports that humans were formed in stages so that he could follow his desires when the Quran plainly says:
(Quran 71:14) God created you in diverse stages
(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.
(Quran 64:3) He designed you THEN made your design better/good
(Quran 40:63) formed you THEN made your form better/goodAnd the verse that shows that Adam was proportioned:
(Quran 7:11) And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], THEN given you [human] form. THEN We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.And then you have Quran 32:7-9 making it clear that humanity's creation had a process.
And then you say
I am the one following my desires.
Well that explains a lot . Like how you try to defend evolution at all costs . You wanted to believe Islam is right but you didn't want to think of a second that just "MAYBE" evolution is wrong . For that reason , you try to make it look like Quran and this ideology are matching . Yeah , I know the type and know what it's like although I wasn't an Atheist neither have I been anything but a Muslim since I was born . Back then , I would hear a slander and an allegation against Islam , and because I don't know how to respond , because I didn't want to think much , I would just say "You're lying , there is no such thing in Islam" even if it was of its basis . That way of thinking is what makes some people deny the forbidding of pork . They hear that "scientists" proved pigs are clean - yeah right ! - and that Islam is wrong when it forbids it .
That is what we are debating. You completely misinterpreted what I said. I didn't want to become a muslim. You accused me of following my desires adn I show you that I do not. I follow what is rational. If I wanted to follow my desires, then I would have never been muslim.
Further, you interpretation is factually incorrect. You think you know me better than I do.
Scientists have not proved pigs are clean, they have proved that pigs raised in cleaner environments are cleaner.
1-two things that say the same thing are complimenting each other on that thing
2-The Quran says that creation was made good through a process (in 32:7-9)
3-Evolution says that creation was made more complex (good) through a process
Conclusion: The Quran and evolution are complimenting each other.
Excuse the wording, its very late..
Well , you just repeated the same thing I said you do ! After all this explaining of the meaning of "Ahsana" and how that evolution isn't mentioned anywhere , you still go from point 2 as if I wasn't just talking about point one .
You still simply don't get it! Ahsana could mean BOTH of those things--creation was improved or made good. It doesn't matter anyway. I have presented my reasoning why saying it is better translated as "better" through quranic context, and you haven't responded.
You made like some kind of false connection here. You say that by proving "Ahsana" can ONLY be interpreted as meaning "creation is good" (which is wrong, I have shown you a scholar interpretation and other opinions of the varying meanings of Ahsana), but you say that that hinders the Quranic teaching of evolution! Wrong!
Lets say it means "creation is good", what do the verses after say? That creation BEGAN and Allah made it Good and made it more complex!
This one was my mistake indeed . Father Adam was formed . I already said so in this post . As for forming and creating out of nothing , I'll explain . In Arabic , the word is "Khalaqa" which means "He created OR He formed or shaped" . When it comes to forming , Allah forms and so do his creatures with his will . That's why in tactical battles we say "create an opening" . But when it comes to creating out of nothing , ONLY Allah can do this . That's why in our world we have the law of "Energy doesn't perish or appear out of nothing" . Translated from the Arabic law so it might differ .
Yes, thanks for pointing that out. But the thing you must agree with Allah creates and created Mankind (this includes Adam) in stages to continue to the scientific support of evolution.
Remember my core argument: "
The Quran supports a gradual creation of all of mankind" And not: "The Quran supports and instant creation of all of mankind".
Once we have that settled, we have the Quran telling us that creation is made in stages, now what are those stages? That is where we turn to science and knowledge. Have we reached that stage yet?
Before that , I'll give you a note . When you talk about the best of mankind , prophet Muhammad peace upon him , it's vulgar to call him "Muhammad" as if talking about your little brother . The same goes to the rest of prophets peace upon them all including father Adam .
Allah knows best .
Yes, let that not give anyone a hint that I do not respect the prophet (pbuh) by calling him "Muhammad", it was just fast typing.
Show Posts
Quran 5:15 O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.