It may not be of the pillars but this is no minor thing wither we're talking about the method of creation or rejecting half of Islam .
The method of creation is clear in the Quran. You are the one rejecting it.
Did you not see my point? This Quranic verse is exactly what you are doing. Upholding baseless hadith and diverting others from the path of God.....By upholding hadiths that deny evolution, you divert others from the path of God.
So I am Forging evidene. Quran 31:6 says "hadith". Hadith is obviously translated as idle talk, because the ahadith IS idle talk....
I had a lot of things to do with school and all so I hope you didn't think I had nothing to respond with . The sign talks about the idle (Amusement) of talk , that's correct . But you use your acrobatic explanations to come out with whatever you want . On what planet does that refer to Hadith ? Since when did "Idle of Talk" = "Talk" let alone "Best of talk" ? Once again , you talk as if a pig turning into an elephant and a bear into a whale is a fact . Brushing that aside gives no meaning to your point here .
Hadith is exactly that. This is not an acrobatic explanation. Do you define acrobatic explanations as reasonable explanations? I don't get how any of it is acrobatic. Are you saying that the Hadiths that you follow are not the same as the type of hadith the Quran is referring to? I disagree. Why do you think they were named Hadiths?? My argument remains, the Quran is referring to what you are doing--diverting others from the path of God through using baseless hadiths.
Secondly, the Quran refers to itself as a hadith:
God has revealed herein the best hadith; a book that is consistent, and points out both ways." 39:23
"Let them produce a hadith like this, if they are truthful." 52:34
"Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this hadith; we will lead them on whence they never perceive." 68:44The Quran is a hadith, but it certainly isn't a baseless hadith. The hadiths you follow are baseless both logically (the way it is transmitted) and scientifically (how it contradicts science).
You take Allah creating Humans on friday afternoon and dipping your fly in the drink as a scientific miracle? I don't know what textbook your reading.
No seriously , on what planet do you live ? And just using rants about how "This is absurd !" doesn't make something wrong . You try to say "Look at that ! This is so stupid and unbelievable ! It must be corruption and lies !" but you don't back up your words with anything .
The scientific method as well as reasoned logic is how I determine if something is factually absurd. Humans created in literal days at a certain day (friday) as your 'sahih' hadith (an oxymoron) implies is factually absurd. Dipping your fly on a drink again is not going to clean the drink nor do anything. Your faith in hadiths is blind--the worst kind. Science has ruled that out completely, there is not way those could be true. Simple as that.
I like what this article has to day, but dipping your fly in your drink a second time is not going to clean the drink up for you as the hadiths implies. This actually further supports my point, the prophet said something similar to that, but it got wrongfully transmitted and the meaning therefore changed.
I swear I knew you'd say such a thing . So I prepared another link :
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php?55209-%C7%E1%C7%DA%CC%C7%D2-%C7%E1%DA%E1%E3%ED-%DD%ED-%CD%CF%ED%CB-%C7%E1%D0%C8%C7%C8-%E6%C7%E1%D1%CF-%DA%E1%EC-%C7%E1%D3%DD%E1%C9-%C7%E1%D1%DA%C7%DA
And I know that even if the fly talks and says "You can clean your drink by dipping me in it again" you'd still disbelieve and ask for the testimony o two bees maybe !
I'm still not compelled. It is way more reasonable to say that the prophet said something similar, but the people quoted him wrongly-as we have seen with many contradictory sahih hadiths. Just like the telephone game--have you ever played it? How often is the last speech the same as the first? Secondly, why don't we do an experiment--dip the fly in the drink once and measure the amount of pathogens. Then dip it again with the other wing and measure the amount of pathogens. What do you think will occur?
Just like the telephone game that we played back in grade school.
Go jump outta window .
Wow you really debunked me there. You know how bad the telephone game can get at giving and spreading information.
I said the science of hadith (hadith collection) is not a science its an art. It is not a perfect science, we find sahih hadiths contradictory....that proves my point.
Art my foot . Pointless and baseless claim . And once again , I won't let you escape answering : On what bases do you know history if you're going to abandon the most accurate perfected way of doing so ?
I don't appreciate how you reject evidence and call your hadiths perfect. IT si not a perfect science, it is an art that isn't even competent.
Third one: I follow you there, perhaps I am inpatient--that doesn't invalidate my evidence though.
Yes it does . If you're not willing to learn then shut it and spare us .
So you are saying that being impatient necessarily leads you to the wrong conclusion. That is logically incoherent. Does not invalidate my evidence, you must address the points. I do agree that perhaps some of my understanding and yours as well are impatient, I am willing to find the truth if good arguments are made. I haven't gotten those good arguments [/quote]
Fourth one: I never accuse without evidence
False , you accuse with forged evidence and dust you think is evidence .
LOL, The evidence for evolution (especially the genetic evidence) and the Quranic teaching is forged, but not the hadith..LOL
The lord said he will protect the revelation which he sent and that's the bottom of the line .
Think about it. If the Quran was referring to Hadiths as being protected, then that would be a Quranic contradiction because hadiths are recognized to be unprotected. You have various contradictions between the Quran and Hadith. Between hadith and Hadith.
What does the Quran mean by protecting the revelation? In other words, did the Quran tell the prophet what the revelation was? Did the Quran say it was hadiths? NO!
"Say (O Muhammad), "What is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches." 6:19This testimony which God describes as "Akbar Shahada" (the Greatest Testimony) commands Muhammad to testify that He received the Quran from God. This testimony speaks of only one revelation received by Muhammad from God which is the Quran. If Muhammad truly received other revelations from God (other than the Quran), would we not find any mention of it in the Quran? Would God hide the fact that He gave Muhammad a revelation independent of the Quran and then command us to obey it?
I meant reasonable people testify that there are contradictions in hadiths. There are. There is proof.
Since when did "A nobody who doesn't know what he's talking about" mean "Reasonable people" ?
I dont' think it is unwillingness when a hadiths says if A then B. And another hadiths says If A then C.
Once again , nothing to back it up . But in order to burst your bubble before it pops up , I'll say this : When someone says "I went to school today then dropped by my friend's house then I went home" and then he says "I went to school and returned home later" then no sane person can say there is a contradiction . When a companion mentions an incident in details and another mentions the general idea of what happened , no one can dare say there is a contradiction .
I don't think you know about logical fallacies. Why do I debate with someone who doesn't understand logical fallacies? If a hadith says if x THEN Y and another hadith says if x THEN z, it is a contradiction.
Here is an example:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:
The last Verse (in the Quran) revealed to the Prophet was the Verse dealing with
usury (i.e. Riba). [Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, #67]
Narrated Al-Bara:
and the last Verse that was revealed was: "They ask you for a legal verdict, Say:
Allah's directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs."
(4.176) [Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, #129]
The same is also mentioned in Sahih Muslim.
That is absolutely relevant. The Quran said that through following hadiths, you will divert others from God. That is because the hadiths you uphold are false. This is happening as we speak. Quran brings you in support of evolution. Hadiths don't. So they divert others from Islam.
You need to be careful . I'm holding my nerves . If it was someone who can't and you were in front of them , you'll get punched . You desperately try to push your way through with what's in bold thinking that I'm as foolish as to let you do so . And until you prove it - and you won't - the rest of what you claim is nothing .
Why didn't you address my argument again? Of course I am getting on your nerves, I am questioning your blatantly false beliefs. I think you know that I am right, but you are just unwilling to reject hadiths because they provide good explanations for you. You've said this before, "if we reject hadiths, then how do we account for...". this is again logically incoherent. It doesn't matter what hadiths explain, you cannot acccept them and remain reasonable. The Quran prohibits it and it is actually a Quranic prophesy. There will be people like you who uphold BASELESS hadiths and divert others from the path of God. Look at how clear that verse is and how accurate it is. Allahu Akbar!
With such huge differences in basis of Islam , don't call me brother . You don't see me calling Shias so do you ?
I call shiahs brother. I call Christians brother. I call athiests brother. Shias are just like you--misinformed and upholding baseless hadiths.
You say "my scholars are better than yours", "my hadiths are better than yours".
Why don't you listen to a Shia Scholar making a belief based on his false hadiths.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfnr6I8B5wYYou are no better than him. Unfortunately, I agree with him. Based on the hadith fabrications about Aisha saying things about the prophet--Aisha appears to be a hypocrite. But I doubt that is the real Aisha and her sayings.
While indeed your logical analysis makes sense, it is not the case with the Quran and I will explain why. NOT once did the Quran say that we are to follow Hadiths in which people said about the prophets. Call me crazy, but, If Allah wanted us to do such, he would have told us to do such.
Come again ? Are all these signs in this same post ordering to follow the sayings of the prophet written with invisible ink ?
If Allah wanted us to follow something besides the Quran, He would have told us so. But he told us the complete opposite in the Quran.
"Obey the messenger" means to obey ONLY the message he came with. And the message that the prophet came with is nothing more than the Quran--as the Quran states. Why didn't it say that there would be other messages?
Think about it this way, If Allah intended that we are to follow the Quran and other revelations, would Allah not make that clear in the Quran? What if Allah's intention was to have us follow the Quran, how would he word his verses--the same way he did.
Telling us the prophet's ONLY duty is to give the message and specifying that the message is the Quran. Why didn't he specify that the message is also gonna be in hadith form??
That is how I see it.
There's no meaning to this if you don't answer what's before it .
WHy don't you answer. There IS meaning to it.
running away from? What? I have never done such a thing.
Then what do we call ignoring all these long quotes for five times ?
What quotes are you referring to, I have answered everything? Bring anything that remains unanswered to my attention and I will happily reply.
1.) This Quranic verse is telling us to find proof that the Quran is true by asking others. By investigating. This is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.
How come ? It says to ask people rather than going to Quran itself . According to your logic , this sign is corrupted .
Firstly, it is referring to the people back then and is un-applicable to us. But even if it was applicable to us, then it would would mean to get testimony from others AND reflecting upon them! Not just blindly accepting them...this is obvious. But too much for you to make that conclusion.
2.) Obviously not because you have hadiths that contradict the QUran.
Vaguely saying "Obviously" doesn't help you .
If you want, I could flood this blog with examples. Let me know.
Also not everyone is a perfect follower of Quran.
The point is ?
The point is we cannot count on the people who wrote hadiths, because not all of them are perfect followers or understanders of the Quran. Do I seriously have to lay everything out for you like this? Please think for yourself.
Also there were obviously those who fabricated hadiths who weren't even Muslim.
And you think people were so foolish as to be unable to identify what's fabricated ? Or do you think they were as lazy as you are ? One more thing , non Muslims are the first to be not accepted in taking Hadith . That's one of the most basic rules which I can clearly see you didn't bother read .
YES! You have evidence of that through hadith contradictions. Do you know how they primarily determine whether a hadith is authentic, by looking at the line of transmission and determining whether they have good character?
Think now; Couldn't the fabricator, also fabricate the Hadith line of transmission?
Also there are also hypocrites.
"Also" I already answered that .
You failed to read my question in context. You are saying that you can trust hadiths because those who said it are followers of the Quran, Is say:
-Some aren't followers of the Quran
-Some are ignorant of parts the Quran
-Some are hypocrites
^this debunks your argument.
Further there is also an extremely important point! The Quran is for all times and places as it states. So the science of the Quran could not have been known by hadith writers, so they put THEIR interpretation of the Quran in hadiths (like flat earth and other nonsense)..Do I have to go on?
Come again ? Flat what ? Now you listen Mr.Nonsense , you're not dealing with kindergarten children here . Any attempt to fool me is futile . And SERIOUSLY , on what planet do you live ?! A majority of scholars agreed that Earth is spherical and you rant about flat Earth ? Did you see now that you heard some stuff from here and there and got biased over it ? You have no idea of what you hate or what you defend . One more thing , if there is a sign with multiple possible explanations and Hadith says that only one of them is correct and states it , that's the end of the story . This doesn't in anyway contradict the fact that Quran is suitable for all times .
Are you saying that the Quran doesn't have things that would be understood in the future? This would reject the QUran's timelessness, Osama's entire work on scientific miracles of the QUran that have just been discovered and it would contradict this verse:
"For every (revealed) tiding there is a term set for its fulfillment
and in time you will come to know." Qur'an 6: 67. 3.) That is because the prophet Muhammad was completely following the Quran and made nothing new. He made no innovations. So if the prophet was following the Quran (that is a MUST) then everyone else was following the Quran. There was no "external sunnah", the Quran is the only sunnah. All of the nonsense you hear in hadiths are innovations and made and laws by the hadith makers. All the prophet did was clear up any problems the companions had with the Quran.
You know what , jump in a volcano . Baseless rant yet again which you clearly cannot back up .
Which hadith, other than this (Quran), do they uphold?" 77:50
-
"These are God's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6
Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114 "Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book (the Quran) fully detailed ?" 6:114 The Quran is fully detailed when it comes to religious matters and a source of law........If you say otherwise, then you are rejecting the Quran. How exactly can you reasonably avoid this?? The only way out is through excuse making...
So Allah is the one to set laws for us . You point is ? Are you playing around ?! I told you time and time again that Sunnah is also a revelation and I even brought you the start of the star Surah ! And no , I'm not the one rejecting Quran , you are the one rejecting Islam and inventing whatever he feels like .
You have the burden of proof of saying why the Sunnah is also a revelation brought to us. This is especially true since the Quran says that you are to only follow what it says as a source of law. Does the Quran refer you to the Sunnah, if so, prove it. I'll be waiting for this one.
4.) You are presenting a reason to believe in hadiths, because they provide History. I tell you its not true history its false history.
For the third or fourth time , baseless rant .
Nah, I am simply presenting the reason why you admitted that you are unwilling to reject hadiths. It is because they provide vital historical explanations for you. But as we have just seen, they aren't very accurate.
Further denying WW1 is ridiculous as we have evidence and even pictures. Denying a war from 1000+ years ago is more reasonable.
Why so ? Why do need to believe it happened ? I can just say that large numbers of people conspired and made this myth called WW1 . Here , I'm using the same logic you use . I don't deny it of course .
If WW1 was transmitted from speech like the telephone game and those speeches have contradictions, then you can say that the events at WW1 are questionable. That is my logic.
I hope this debate continues. I know it is very hard for people to let go of thing they were brought up believing, but I think it is important to search for truth and nothing but. That means we shouldn't be making excuses for what the Quran supports or not, it should be entirely on logic and reason, not excuse making.
You have seriously gotta be kidding me . Are not you the one who told the Canadian "My parents brought me on that 1+1=2" ? Yet , there's no point in what you say in the first place .
Did you not get my point? I said that we shouldn't make excuses to believing something, it should be entirely on logic/reason/evidence/rationality/intellectual honesty.
So if your parents taught you that 1+1=3, and I present reasons as to why the answer is 2, you shouldn't make excuses to justify your initial statement.
You can ask any scientist or visit any peer-reviewed journal for this information: Evolutionary, we can say that life formed from the Earth (or what became to be the earth). Their mode of reproduction was asexual. Then sexual reproduction occurred which allowed for more variation and more complexity in organisms. Through sexual reproduction, more variation more mutation occurred and allowed extremely complex multicellular organisms capable of thought, like humans to develop. These are known facts.
So let me get this straight : Evolution is right because they teach it in universities ? Now who's the one who doesn't want to abandon what he was brought up on ?
Did I say that or did I say that you should analyze those journals and see the evidence for yourself? You must do it while remaining honest and faithful to yourself. There is so much evidence that posting it here would take years.
OUt of all of the scientific facts the Quran has, this one is THE. STRONGEST. ONE.
Yeah right , and dinosaurs became birds because they were trying to catch flies . Wait , you do believe so !
Ignorance to such a degree! The only cure for this disease is knowledge. PLEASE get yourself educated, it is not even worth my time to explain this. you have the world's knowledge at the tips of your fingers! The Quran encourages to seek knowledge, so follow that COMMANDMENT.
One last thing to say is that I'm not fooled by your masks . You're a bad actor actually . You try to look like an innocent person terrorized and insulted by a pope or something . I never forget what makes me angry , that includes your lack of basic manner when talking about Allah and Islam and the prophet peace upon him and his companions . And unless you learn , don't expect me to treat you with respect . I had more respectful arguments with Christians and even Atheists .
Lots of emotional arguments here. So I will reject them. I operate on nothing more than logic and reason and rationality and intellectual honesty. If this is too much for you, then I apologize.
I love Allah and I love the prophet Muhammad. NOT the hadith representation of them.
Further, I do admire saying "peace be upon him", but it is not a quranic concept. The Quran doesn't say "peace be upon him" when referring to a prophet, it is a human innovation--but a benign one. I don't reject it, I admire it---
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