Answering Christianity Research Center

Quote from: mclinkin94 on February 26, 2014, 12:27:35 AM

I wanted to get your views on this.

I also wanted to show 2 articles that suggest hell isn't eternal:

http://www.angelfire.com/bug/answering/hell.htm

http://quransmessage.com/articles/is%20the%20punishment%20of%20hell%20eternal%20FM3.htm

What is very odd is that the first article claims it is written by Osama at the end..But it is not in answering Christianity.

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Mclinkin94,

Thank you for bringing back this article .  I've written it during the early years of this website.  Now that I read it years later, I see that I've made some very solid arguments.  But I removed the article for two reasons:

1-  This is a topic that is very big to Allah Almighty.  Writing shallow articles about it could be very misleading.

2-  During the times when I desperately needed authors and help to help me tackle the OCEAN of the anti-Islamic articles out there, some of the brothers got to the heads of many my authors, and I was forced to take a vote on whether to keep this article or remove it, and it was voted that I should remove it.  So I removed it to keep the unity.  I couldn't take on the infidels by myself.  So I sacrificed the article. 

But still, even after reading the article years later, I still don't feel comfortable about writing shallow articles about such a deep topic like this.  On a side note, this is what bothers me from false religions and cults like Christianity and Shiism.  They make very very serious and deep claims (Jesus is our Creator [1], His Mother is the Goddess of the Universe [1], Ahlul Bayt people are with GOD Almighty ON HIS THRONE, and His Throne is "under their feet" [2], and that we must seek them for Forgiveness, Mercy, Guidance, Aid [2], etc...) about GOD Almighty that are VERY SERIOUS yet based on very shallow opinions and arguments.  I don't want to be on the same boat as those deviant people, who are the lords of nonsense and noise.



Will a Camel really go through a Needle's Eye?

Let us look at the following Verses:

‏7:40 ان الذين كذبوا باياتنا واستكبروا عنها لاتفتح لهم ابواب السماء ولايدخلون الجنة حتى يلج الجمل في سم الخياط وكذلك نجزي المجرمين

"To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our reward for those in sin.  (The Noble Quran, 7:40)"

"Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.  Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'  When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, 'Who then can be saved?'  Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'  (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 19:23-26)"   


Like I said, this article was written during the early years of the website.  I mean, I know well that the Verses that were mentioned (brother Haleem sent them to me) about the Camel going through the needle's eyes from both the Bible and the Holy Quran gave a very sound argument, and quite frankly I till this day love this argument, but I fear there is much to it than what appears on the surface.  We have to be very careful when we exegete the Holy Quran, akhi.  We can't just carelessly write articles.  I also don't want to be making claims such as these if they turn out to be false.  This is almost very personal with GOD Almighty.

Also, the camel going through the needle's eye argument isn't complete for the following reasons:

1-  Allah Almighty could've really meant that it is impossible for the disbelievers to leave Hell, and that Allah Almighty spoke about it in our limited logic and language.

2-  Prophet Jesus' (peace be upon him) Saying about the camel and the needle's eye in the Bible isn't 100% authentic, nor is it Quran.  Therefore, we can't base an entire belief on it.

But yet at the same time, nothing is impossible with Allah Almighty.  So:

1-  Will Allah Almighty really make a camel go through a needle's eye in the Life after and end all punishments in Hell?

2-  Will Allah Almighty eventually empty all Hell, because He is the Most Merciful?

3-  Did not Christ say in the verse above that nothing is impossible with GOD Almighty?

4-  I remember an old American Christian friend of mine told me once that "the needle's eye" also referred to fortresses' openings in the old days where they launched arrows against the incoming enemy from.  So if there is a big enough opening, then certainly a small camel could probably pass through it.

If you also google it, then you'll find that it could also mean a castle's gate.

5-  So will Allah Almighty have a fortress with some opening, or an opening (that would be called a needle's eye) be made in the Life After, and have a Camel pass through it to end all of Hell's punishments?

6-  Will or Would this "needle eye" be referring to an Entrance to Heaven, if Heaven were considered a "fortress"?  So would a Camel pass through one of Heaven's Gates?  Notice again in the Noble Verse above "....no opening will there be of the gates of heaven...."

I don't know, and I don't know if Hell will eventually become empty or not.  I can't make a claim that I am not 100% sure about regarding this, especially on topics like this.  I incline towards Hell will eventually become empty.  After all, Allah Almighty intended for all, including satan himself (who was in Heaven before), to be all in Heaven with GOD Almighty under His Eternal and Divine Love, Mercy, Generosity, Kindness, and most of all Under Him to Worship Him and to Glorify Him for Ever.  But then again, I don't know.  This is one of the mysteries of the unknown, and it was made unknown for us on purpose by Allah Almighty:

"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"  (The Noble Quran, 17:85)"

I hope this helps, Insha'Allah (if Allah Almighty is Willing).  May Allah Almighty bless you, akhi Mclinkin94.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Thanks for letting me in on the detail! I knew this article had a similar format to Answering-Christianity and the arguments were very solid and well-written!

I think you had good reasons to delete that article, it is a very deep topic that is very controversial. Many Muslims I would say believe that hell is eternal. When you start showing them that the Quran may suggest that it isn't eternal, you would hurt Islamic unity.

I'm glad I have found both articles, they were very eye-opening and well written!

You provided a linguistic basis to show that hell may not be eternal.

I agreed with the camel passing through a needle point. I actually disregarded that in the article myself. Initially, I was thinking "why would anyone use the bible (a potentially corrupt source) to translate the Quran?". In my opinion, the Quran should never be translated by any source outside of itself. Especially a potentially corrupted source. So I definitely agree with your point.

Secondly, Allah could make a camel pass through a needle point if he choses to. This means, that everyone would be in hell as long as Allah wills. I agree with this point as well. But it could also mean that the camel would never pass through the needle so punishment is eternal.

It looks as if Allah has allowed BOTH interpretations in the Quran, and there may be a divine reason for this. You even addressed this reason in your article (that is how good that article is!). If Allah directly told everyone that hell will be emptied, sinners would have the confidence to keep on sinning. Allah would indirectly show you that hell may be emptied so that he could show his compassion.

ctually its a 100% misconception about the theory evolution where many of us misunderstand the theory when we say that man evolved from apes , when you superficially read the theory you most probably misunderstand it , actually the theory states that man & apes had the common ancestor from which they evolved , but it doesn't say that man evolved from apes or vice versa

Yeah, many anti-evolutionists simply aren't informed. TO be more accurate just say that humans developed from ape-like humans or share a common ancestor with them

@ Mclinkin 94 if you trust & have 100% faith in the Quran then you have to believe in the SAHIH HADITHS because although Allah sent us the Quran but along with it he also sent its most accurate interpreter I.e Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) many things are wriiten in the Quran but the ways to do them ain't mentioned in the Quran for ex. - reading Salaat 5 times a day is mentioned in the Quran but how to do it , we know from the Hadiths that's why if you believe in the Quran you gotta believe in the Sahih HADITHS I.e SAHIH BUKHARI & SAHIH MUSLIM WHICH ARE CONSIDERED TO BE THE MOST ACCURATE HADITHS & EVEN I DON'T COMPLETELY TRUST THE SCHOLARS BUT SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO CAUSE ALLAH WON'T COME ON THE EARTH HIMSELF TO CLEAR YOUR doubts in the Quran & that's why he sent scholars on earth to explain it to you in a better manner

Belief in any external outside source beyond the Quran is unjustified. Period. The Quran did not state that there is going to be a separate book besides it that contains laws, The Quran stated quite the contrary.

”Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?” The Word of your Lord is complete in truth and in justice” 6:115

Does that sound like Allah wanted you to use an external source given that the Quran is fully detailed and complete. HOw about these verses:

”This is not fabricated ‘hadith’; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a guidance and mercy for those who believe” 12:111
”We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance and mercy and good news for the submitters” 16:89

In spite of the very clear words: “fully detailed”, “details of everything” and “explanations for everything” the corrupt interpreters somehow still claim that the Quran does not include all the details! Sadly, they claim that the Quran has only mentioned the major outlines of the religion while as the details of everyday rituals are only to be found in the Hadith and Sunna!

These false claims only go to expose these people’s ignorance of the Quran, and also their disbelief in God's words.

Asalamualaykum brother.  I have done some research about evolution, and with all the information i have gained evolution seems to be false. Although i do agree that there are bits and pieces of the theory that are true, like adaption and the gene pool increasing. So anyway, what do you say was the ancestor of humans.

I say get informed!  And it is no longer a theory. It has been established. So start there 

The Quran obviously did not state the ancestor of humans being ape-like humans. Imagine it did? Imagine what people of the 7th century would have thought if the prophet told them that humans came from ape-like humans. They would have though the prophet was insane! Heck people today 1400 years after have a hard time grasping evolution, imagine how it would have been back then. Secondly, if the Quran gave out all scientific facts and they were discovered, then EVERYONE becomes a Muslim. Allah does not want that as life is a test! The professor does not give the answers to the exam just as Allah doesn't. Allah gives you signs!

IN the Quran we are informed that Adam was formed in an embryo just like Jesus and all other humans were formed in an embryo. That implies that humans had an ancestor. Secondly, the Quran informs us that Adam was formed as a product of sexual reproduction. Another hint that we have ancestors. Thirdly, the Quran says that humans are successors of the Earth but the Quran didn't specify who we succeeded.

My. Dear brother I too know that its not 100% correct but some facts like survival of the fittest & adaptation according to the environment are correct , I myself can prove that this theory is wrong by giving you short but effective points
1)the diagrams given by ernst haeckel of the embryos of different organisms were actually proved to be false when viewed through the microscope
2) the gase used by Urey & Miller in their expt to produce amino acids was a failure cause they produced some basic forms but it was impossible to make the complex compunds & secondly the gase used by them weren't correct acc. To the geologists the earlier atmosphere comprised of volcanic gases & when they were added in the expt the expt failed
3)the peppered moths photographs were fake , that white coloured moths didn't survived & black moths survived due to industrialization , actually the black moths don't even live in the tree barks , the dead moths were pinned on the tree & photographed
4) the fossils of rama pithecus , shiva pithecus etc were fakes , they were actually found to be man made
5)darwins finches who had grown their beaks for a few centimeters during the drought in galapagos island returned back to normal after the drought
Therefore all the basis on which this theory is based itself is wrong so how can the theory be right & moeover its till now called a theory & not a fact so how can a person believe upto 100% in a theory

This is now turning into a historical debate...

1.) I'm not sure where you got that information, but I am not a historian and I haven't examined history. I don't care about the history I care about the science. I can assure you that the embryo pictures are accurate. I am a microbiologist and I have had my fair share of animal development classes. IN them, I would get to see these LIVE.  They are very similar and the best part is, the Quran affirms this.



Support in the Quran of embryological drawings:

Quran 23:14 Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah , the best of creators.

So these verses are referring to embryology of humans. The one I wanted your attention into was " We developed him into another creation". That means that as we were developing in the embryo, we were a different creation. We were more animal like UNTIL differentiation occurs and Allah develops us into another creation. That means that before we developed into another creation in the embryo, we were like a previous creation.

2.) LIke I said, history is not my specialty. What you are referring to here is chemical evolution not biological evolution (although they are connected)

3.) This is an ecological demonstration of how natural selection operates. Again, I don't know where you get this information. Secondly, I have found a source that states that these conspiracy theories are misrepresented and false. They described these allegations as ""littered with errors, misrepresentations, misinterpretations and falsehoods". source: ^ Jump up to: a b Michael Majerus (2004). "The Peppered moth: decline of a Darwinian disciple" (.doc). Archived from the original on 2007-09-26. Retrieved 2007-09-10.

4.) Again, I'm no expert on this or anthropology, but if there were any fake fossils, we have many real ones...

5.) It's not called a theory. It was called a theory many ages ago, with the development of molecular biology and further DNA testing, it is clear. You have to face the facts. Evolution is a fact. Secondly, Present your sources please as I feel like you are just getting them from creation websites. Do you know the lies they spread? It's a shame and it is nothing more than an insult to Allah. Darwin's was not right all the time, he did makes some mistakes and we have corrected the theory of evolution. Darwin was the father of evolution just like mendel was the father of genetics. They weren't 100% right and we discovered further things.

& my belief is that Allah is much more knowledgeable than any of the worldly scientists so I believe that Allah & his Prophet knows the best about the ancestors of humans & how he brought Adam alayhisalaaam in this world , but still Allah doesn't mention in what form was Adam (p.bu.h) was created in , coz we know hauwa alayhisalaam was produced from his spine or ribs I guess , & neither does the Quran mention anywhere that in which state he was brought into the world so I am not very certain on this topic , only thing which I can say now is that Allah knows the best

Yes Allah knows best and he has told us in the Quran that he created humans in diverse stages, formed us then perfected our forms, grew us out of the Earth like plants .

Hawwa was created from ribs? That is an old biblical lie..You are a muslim who follows the Quran not biblical nonsense.

What was I thinking? of course. Hadiths incorporated some biblical nonsense into themselves and thus Muslims are stuck with the Christians in denying a scientific fact. Ugh...

Please brother, listen to Allah words and follow nothing but the Quran.

& one thing I forgot to mention that till date no animal has been found to change its basic characteristics ( I.e change from one species to another) neither has any kind of mutation proved to be useful although some scientists say that africans have developed sickel cell anaemia in order to protect themselves from malaria but its like cutting your legs in order to prevent yourself from car accidents

Evolution is a long process, you won't see immediate results. Mutations occur and useful ones occur-look at resistant strains of bacteria. Natural selection occurs in real life in bacteria. Why can we see mutations and natural selection LIVE in bacteria? Because bacteria reproduce must faster than animals. Animal evolution is a much longer process. it is absolutely no surprise what you mentioned.

Sickle cell anemia is a beneficial mutation because of the heterozygous advantage. many people die from it because they are born homozygous. The only reason the mutation occurred is because heterozygotes survived best.

So, I'm gonna respond to you point by point. You numbered them so I will too. You should know that I do not trust hadiths and therefore do not cite them nor respond to them. This could be another debate, but the question is does the Quran support evolutionary creation, not hadiths.

(1) You appealed to authority on this verse and it is not surprising that authorities in Islam do not support the evolutionary interpretation of Quran 71:13-14: They base their understanding on hadiths. All we need to do is who the Arabic translation of that word. Allah did not give you the Quran so that you can ask these so called "scholars" to interpret it for you. Allah wants YOU to ponder on the Quran, not have someone else ponder for you.  Will they not then ponder the Qur'an or are there locks upon their hearts?" [Quran 47:24]

The word for stages (atwaran) means successive stages. That means the creation of humans beings is in stages. That is all that verse shows.

Did Allah mention in other verses the stages he created us in? Yes embryological and evolutionary (i have mentioned this in my earlier posts).

You said ""interpreting Qur'anic verses in the light of other Qur'anic verses," because in other verses Allah explains the stages of creation as being those inside the mother's womb.". That is exactly what I did. Quran 32:7-9 explains those stages. One stage involved the beginning of formation of humans, the next is sexual reproduction and the next is the stage in further proportioning.  Not only that, you failed to mention where else Allah explains the stages of creation besides the embryological.

Further, if all humans were created in stages, then so was Adam....

(2) The next thing you brought up while making fun of it, is the verse on Allah increasing the wings on Angels (Quran 35:1).

All you have to do is ask yourself, why is Allah talking about Angels and to what purpose is Allah telling you that his creation involves adding and increasing complexity of his creatures? What point does Allah want you to understand? The point is that Allah adds on to creation.

You also stated that it is not generally all his creation, but it is talking about Angels. WHY is Allah talking about Angels if the subject of that chapter is humans?

What is the verse telling you about the nature of Allah's creation? It is telling you that Allah creates by originating and ADDING on to creation. He made Angels with one wing and he increased and improved his creation into having 4.

If you can't ask yourself these questions and if you can see why Allah wrote this verse (What is the purpose), then you would get the proper translation.

Allah specifically told us in the Quran that intelligent people will get the right interpretation of the Quran. So I hope you can read the Quran intelligently and think of the meaning and the concept that Allah wants you to grasp.

Why does Allah mention Angels in a chapter that's subject is obviously humans?...Because Allah creates the same way. By originating creation and by adding on to creation.

(3) The next thing you discussed was Quran 7:69

I've noticed that you committed to appeal to ridicule fallacy. Just because something sounds ridiculous, does not mean it its wrong. You need to understand that.

Ask yourself, Why did Allah say that he has improved us in creation/stature after the people of Noah? HOW did Allah improve us in creation/stature? By killing of the humans that weren't fit enough to believe and be obedient to Allah...I.e. Natural selection.

What is Allah teaching you in this verse? Why did he say that he has improved us in creation and why did he imply that humans have gone through an evolutionary event at this time?? You need to dig deeper into this and not get a shallow and superficial understanding...

(4) Its funny here. You refuted yourself and you ended up proving my point.

My point was there was a long period of time in which Adam was non-existent and there was along period of time in which humans got created.

I will quote you:

"or it could be the period of time when Allah shaped Adam"-->Agreed.

It could be the time when man was not created-->Agreed.

Thanks for proving my point.

Allah created Adam in a long period of time and before Adam's creation a long period of time occurred...Wow, what a strong hint at the long process in which Allah created humans.

(5) This is where you really discredit yourself.

Quran 96:1-2 is where Allah has explicitly told us that he created MANKIND (ALL OF MANKIND) from Alaq. This does not exclude anyone as Allah is never short of words

Then you went to Quran 7:11-12 and said see, Adam wasn't created from Alaq, he was created from Clay. This is worse then saying that the Quran contradicts itself by saying that humans are created from Water and then the Quran says humans are created from Clay, and then the Quran says humans are created from Dust. IT is just as bad as the infidel argument. We were ALL created from Water AND dust AND semen AND clay AND alaq!

We created man from an extract of clay. (Qur'an, 23:12 and 15:26)
(Quran 96:1-2) ... who created, Created man from a clinging substance (Alaq or embryo)

^EVERYONE was created from clay and EVERYONE was created from Alaq. BOTH are true.

Adam was formed in an embryo and he had a father....

(6) I agree on you with Quran 3:33-34. It was speaking about being descenants of one another. Apologies for bringing that up.

What I do disagree on is your view of Quran 35:11

Quran 35:11 And Allah created you from dust, then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs

You stated that this verse refers to creation Adam from dust and his offspring  is the sperm-drop and the mates. To show why this translation is definitively wrong, let us look at this part "Then he made you in pairs". That means that humans FIRST became pairs after creation of us from Dust and then a sperm drop. Adam and Hawwa were a pair, weren't they? Yes. They were a pair. So the logical conclusion is that he created us from dust and then from a sperm drop BEFORE he created Adam and hawwa (a pair). Read the verse again. To restate: Adam and Hawwa are a pair. This verse says that humans were made in pairs after Allah created the sperm-drop. The logical and necessary conclusion is that Adam and Hawwa were created from a sperm-drop because they are a pair.

You stated that Thumma (the word for "then") in this verse does not meant to denote time? Based on what do you make such an assumption? Thumma means then and it is mostly used in the Quran to denote a time after.

I also disagree on your view of who Adam succeeded in the Earth. The Quran did not mention anything on this, but the Quran tells us that Adam succeeded something. The Quran did NOT say Jinn. The Quran left that for US to discover. Evolutionary science tells us who that something Adam succeeded is. It happened to be ape-like humans...We DID succeed something on the Earth. Then you also held the argument that successor doesn't have to mean physically succeeding, and that it could mean being a ruler over them. And I would agree here, but I would say the word "khalifatan" meaning successors refers to BOTH succeeding after something on the Earth and ruling over them. We did succeed something on the Earth and we ARE the rulers of the Earth.

And oh by the way, you proved my point once again:

You quoted the verse that said Jesus' creation is the likeliness of Adam (Quran 3:59). Guess what? Jesus was formed in an embryo and my whole thesis here is that SO WAS ADAM. Adam was formed in an embryo himself. You proved my point once again. So why are you so reluctant to accept the scientific fact of evolution?

You are getting refuted, again and again. And most of the time, you are refuting yourself.

(7) You posted a verse that I didn't even mention, but I would still like to defend the view and the what the verse is saying.

Allah caused you to grow from the earth, and then will return you to it and bring you out again. (Qur'an, 71:17-18)

The manipulation of this verse that you present is wrong.

Allah has caused us to grow from the Earth and then he will RETURN us to the Earth. That means we will die exactly where we grew from the earth. This verse DOES present evidence of inorganic evolution! We formed from the Earth and we will return to the Earth. It does NOT mean just nourishment from plants and other earth things like you mention, it means literally we have grown from the Earth. Why can this be the only interpretation? Because we will return to the Earth.

Even in your own post you agreed with me again and refuted yourself. Why do you do this, it's like your arguments has no structure.

You said: " When you die, you will return to the earth and become part of the soil"-->Agreed. That means that this verse is saying we grew from the soil. Another Quranic verse informs us that we grew from the Earth progressively (implying the idea of creation in stages):

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.

This is extremely suggestive of the evolutionary fact. Another valid translation of that verse is that Allah has caused us to grow from the earth like plants. The verse would read: 71.17. And Allah has caused you to grow out of the earth like plants  What does that mean? That means that Allah has planted us in the Earth and we grew FROM the earth. Just like planting a seed. You put the seed, provide it with everything it needs and nourishment, leave it alone and it will morph/evolve into a plant. Compare that to the evolutionary finding. The first cell formed out of the contents of the Earth and it grew and evolved overtime into a human.   

So to stress this point: The Quran states that a plant grows out of the Earth in successive stages, just like humans grew out of the Earth in successive stages. This again is extremely suggestive of the evolutionary fact and is contrary to your anti-evolution heresy.

---------------------------

It tells us that humans grew from the Earth in successive stages progressively just as Quran 71:14 states (Allah created humans in diverse stages)! I would also like to remind you that the two verses (Growing out of the earth progressively/like plants and Allah created humans in diverse stages) are in the same chapters and only a few verses apart. Clearly Allah wants us to grasp this concept that we not only did we grow in stages embryonically but  grew from the earth in diverse stages.--That Adam himself grew from the Earth in diverse stages.

-----------------------

8 Your "real" process of creation has no Quranic validity. The Quran did not mention this nonsense.

Quoting "scholars" and saying "look they agree with me", is ridiculous. Irrespective of the general consensus, the truth is the truth. In the 1950's scientists did not believe in Quantum Mechanical Findings (anti-realism) and they did not believe in the big bang despite the overwheming evidence. People at that time, just like you, Quoted those scientists and saying "look they agree with me, therefore you are wrong". This mechanism of argument defense is not how we debate.

The Quran did not command us to have others ponder on the Quran for us. The Quran commanded us to ponder it ourselves and not to commit shirk and follow religious mullahs.

Next, you quoted Quran 7:189 and then stated that you believe that Adam is the father of all humans. YES, he IS the father of all humans, but he also had a parent. Allah has chosen Adam for all humans to descend from.

IF you are stating that the concept of Adam (a singular human being) is not in support of evolution, then you are wrong. Genetic study has been able to trace our ancestry back to ONE singular individual. They call it the Mitochondrial eve and the Y-Chromosome Adam. These are NOT the Adam and Eve. This is just an example of how we can trace our ancestry back to singular people. If the mitochondrial eve and the Y-Chromosome Adam had a singular common ancestor (which they must logically have), THEN the parents of that ancestor would be THE Quranic Adam and Eve. The pair in which we have ALL descended from.

Then you said something like did "Hawwa evolutionize from Adam?" and you quote Quran 4:1. I can easily present 5 valid translations:

1.) It is referring to the Soul. He created Adam's soul and took it and made Eve's
2.) It is not referring to Adam and Eve at all, and it is referring to the first cell that has formed and its pair that divided from it and eventually all humans came from this.
3.) It is referring to Adam and Eve and Eve literally came out of Adam.
4.) Eve was one of Adam's offspring that he has mated with

I'm guessing you support translation #3?  I do too. But what does Allah mean that he created Eve from Adam?

You have yourself proved that Adam was created in an embryo (just like Jesus) and Allah intervened in the Embryo (just like Jesus). So Adam and eve could literally been at one point an embryo that divided. How Allah took eve out of Adam.

Translation #1 is not very far off either. Translation #2 is possible, but I hesitate to defend it because nowhere in the Quran does it state anything about the first cell dividing. So I don't support translation 2. 

Translation 4 is supportive of incest, but we should know that Allah makes rules and abrogates his rules. Incest back then did occur, we have to accept it. Even on your view that Adam and Eve had kids and the kids mated with each other presents Allah allowing Incest. Anyway, Eve could have simply been an offspring of Adam (could be Adams daughter, nephew, or nephew's kid). I don't see any issue with this translation. Eve came out of Adam and with THIS pair, all humans became descendants of them.
 
^So this refutes your idea that Quran 4:1 is against the idea of evolution.

Next you state, and I'm quoting to literally put quotes on your answer:

Then Allah said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." (Chapter 38:71-72 Quran).

And when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration.” So the angels prostrated – all of them entirely, Except Iblees, he refused to be with those who prostrated. (Qur’an 15:29-31)

Now. Lets inspect the above ayah in points:

1) Allah created man from clay
2) Then fashioned and Proportioned
3) Then Breathed soul into him

This ayah proves that Adam was created directly by Allah and not process of evolution. Because according to evolution humans came from primates apes..animals.etc. Basically they are ALIVE and need to be ALIVE to evolve. But Adam was only ALIVE and had a soul only after he was fashioned and proportioned by Allah. Meaning Adam was DEAD AND LIFE-LESS when he was being created and in the process of fashioning or as Mclinkin says in the process of evolution. THEREFORE ADAM COULD NOT OFF EVOLVED FROM SOMETHING BEFORE HIM WHEN HE WAS NOT ALIVE. Because how can a dead ape evolve into a man. YOU UNDERSTANDING ME GUYS.

Issue with your understanding. Firstly, you assume that a soul makes you alive and that without a soul you are not alive and you assume that a soul is also given to Animals. Where is the Quranic basis of this assumption? There are none.  Bacteria are alive and I don't think they have souls. So souls? What does the Quran mean by soul? Well, the Quran seems to show that the input of a soul is correlated with higher intelligence (the ones that humans possess)! The Quran states that Allah has given us a soul and given us higher intelligence. So a soul is a feature required for the intelligence that a human possess and not for being alive.

So NO, these Ayas do not prove that Adam was created directly by Allah and not through a process of evolution. Adam was given a soul because he was picked over the other beings by Allah. A soul is not necessary for you to be alive. A soul is something Allah decides to give and Allah gave it to us .The soul possibly granted us certain faculties such as intellect, volition, emotion, knowledge of right and wrong, a sense of justice, mercy etc. Obviously Animals do not have the same intellect we do.

So what does this mean? It does not mean that the creation of Allah in stages did not involve life. This thus refutes your point.

In order to gain any argumentative support, you MUST show where the Quran said animals and other living things are given souls. And, I know there is no such Quranic verse. Your argument therefore falls on itself. This whole rant is ridiculous and it's major premise/assumption is false. It is nothing more than idle talk.

You have to accept the Quranic consistency in stating that Humans were created progressively in stages. This is in support of the idea of evolution. We started off as nothing more than clay (Allah originates creation), we evolved and got proportioned into higher beings (Allah adds complexity on to his creation) and Allah has created us good (Allah perfects/improves his creation).

Conclusion:
1.) Allah said that he created humans in stages and he specified them as being both evolutionary and embryological
2.) Allah explains to us that he originates his creations and he increases/Adds on to them
3.) Allah tells us that humans have experienced a significant evolutionary event at Noah's time and it was driven through Natural selection (makes you think, huh?)
4.)Adam was created in a long period of time involving a process
5.) Adam was created in an embryo thereby implying he at least had a mother
6.) Adam was chosen over something and he succeeded them!
7.)Allah has caused us to grow from the Earth progressively and in stages
8.) Miscellaneous things (etc.)

And here is yet another verse in which Allah shows us the process in which humans were created:

(Quran 82:7) O mankind, what has deceived you concerning your Lord, the Generous, Who created you, then proportioned you, and then balanced you?

This verse may refer to three main stages of the creation of human beings. The first was creation of a living cell (The Arabic verb khlaqa, created). The second was the change from unicellular prokaryote organism to the multi-cellular eukaryote animal organism (The Arabic verb sawwa, fashioned you). The third was the human departure from the animal stage (The Arabic verb 'adala, made you walk in an upright way). Allah has improved his creation. Allah has added on to his creation, just like Allah mentioned when he said he added wings to angels. Allah originates creation, then Evolves it (increases it, improves it, perfects it).

Quote

أحسنَ / أحسنَ إلى / أحسنَ بـ يُحسِن ، إحسانًا ، فهو محسِن ، والمفعول مُحسَن - للمتعدِّي
أحسنَ الشَّخصُ : فعل ما هو حَسَنٌ ، ضدّ أساء { إِنْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ لأَنْفُسِكُمْ }
أَحْسَنَ إِلَيْهِ وَبِهِ : أَعْطَاهُ الحَسَنَةَ
أَحْسَنَ الشيءَ : أَجاد صُنعه ، وفي التنزيل العزيز : غافر آية 64 وَصَوَّرَكُمْ فَأَحْسَنَ صُوَرَكُمْ ) )
أَحْسَنَ العَزْفَ على الكَمانِ : أَتْقَنَهُ
أَحْسَنَ التَّصَرُّفَ مَعَهُ : أَتَى بِالحَسَنِ

It's funny how the underlined is the bottom of the line while you shove it aside like it's nothing .

You must have disregarded everything else I have said.

Let me paraphrase Quran 32:7-9:

Allah makes perfect everything he creates and he started the creation of a human being from clay. Then Allah has created sexual reproduction. Then Allah has further proportioned us and given us higher intelligence and minds.

Evolutionary, the first cells have formed and they have further evolved. Sexual reproduction developed which had allowed variation to occur and through that variation and natural selection, his creatures have evolved higher intelligence and vision and hearing.

It must be a coincidence that this verse parallels exactly how evolution on earth happened and it must be a coincidence this verse also refers to the perfecting of everything that Allah created.

But, I wanted to restate what I have been saying the whole time:

You could interpret the beginning of this verse (ahsana) in two valid ways:

1.) Allah creates everything perfect
2.) Allah makes everything that he created perfect

So how do we find out which one the Quran is talking about #1 or #2? Or could it be that the Quran is trying to tell you both?

The reason why I support translation 2 is because it seems to better fit the context in showing the process of how Allah starts creation from nothing (clay) and develops it through many stages into a conscious human being. That is how Allah perfected everything that he created. Another reason why I support translation #2 is through comparing this verse with other verses. TWICE the Quran has told us that Allah has formed us THEN made our forms good or perfected our forms in Quran 64:3 and 40:64. This again supports translation #2 of Quran 32:7-9 that Allah makes everything that he has already created better/good/perfect.
---

Here is yet another reason why I appeal to translation #2 over the first one.

(Quran 35:1) All praise is due to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, who made the angels messengers having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

Take a closer read at the above verse and ask yourself what concept Allah wants you to get from this. In this verse, Allah informs us that he increases the complexity of creation. He adds onto his creation things--He improves upon/perfects his creation. This verse is informing us that Allah increases complexity in creation and that he works through improving creation. Also notice what chapter this verse happens to be coincidentally in. The chapter name is "The originator". Just by mere juxtaposition, the Quran informs us that Allah originates creation and he adds on to creation. Now look at this verse in reference to 32:7. Now do you see why I appeal to translation #2? Allah prefects his creation, he improves it, he adds on to it, he makes it good. Allah perfects his creation.


Here is another verse that shows how Allah perfects creation. This verse shows that humans went through a significant evolutionary event during Noah's time.

(Quran 7:69) “Are you surprised that a reminder has come to you from your Lord through a man from amongst you to warn you? Recall that he made you successors after the people of Noah, and He improved you in creation. So recall God’s blessings that you may succeed.”

This above verse has not only showed that humans went through a significant evolutionary event during Noah's time, but it has also shown that natural selection is the mechanism that Allah improves his creation! By killing off the humans who rejected Allah in Noah's time and saving the humans who did believe in Allah and possessed the intelligence to maintain such a belief, Allah has improved humans in creation. Not only did the Quran show that Allah perfects/improves creation, but the Quran has just shown us that Allah's mechanism of improvement is through natural selection. It must be a coincidence.....

Allah did create Humans in stages. No one disagrees. But where is your evidence that they were stages of evolution.

We agree that Allah:

1) Designed Adam
2) Created Adam from Earth, Dust, Clay..etc
3) Created Adam in stages
4) Perfected Adam

Correct?

The first thing I need to say is that the Quran obviously did not explicitly state that humans descended from ape-like hominids or that we share a common ancestor with apes. There are many reasons why Allah would withhold that information. One is that the people of the 7th century would have thought Muhammad was absurd and crazy (people still think evolution is a crazy idea) and they would never become Muslims in the first place. So when we speak of the Quran supporting evolution, we mean that the idea of evolution is hinted at in the Quran and the Quran is in support of the idea of evolution and not against it. This is NOT like the Bible which does not contradict evolution. We are showing that the Quran goes as far as supporting the basic idea of evolution.


Yes. "Created Adam in stages", should be "Created Adam in diverse stages"

To add further, Adam was not the first human and he had a father and a mother.

We should add:

5) Created Adam in a womb.

Why do I say that Adam has a father? Because ALL humans were created from an embryo. And being created from an embryo implies having parents.

(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance (Alaq or embryo)

Adam was chosen over others AND he descended from others:

(Quran 35:11) And Allah did create you from dust; then from a reproductive fluid; then He made you in pairs

ADAM was created from dust, THEN from a reproductive fluid and THEN humans were made in pairs

That means that Adam was created through sexual reproduction.

(Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority.

^Adam was a successor on the earth: Who did he succeed? If you say Jinn, show a Quranic reference please: otherwise you have no argument. Nowhere does the Quran say we succeeded Jinn, it said that we are successors of the Earth.

Quote from: ali achinxo on February 18, 2014, 02:12:02 PM

As'salamu Alaikum brother,

Thanks for the post. But the sentence about evolution is disappointing to be heard from a Muslim.

Ouch! LOL .  I see a big debate about evolution coming up.  I actually owe brother Mclinkin94 two debates:

1-  Why Darwin's evolution isn't supported by Islam.  However, evolution of our bodies changing in sizes and features is supported by Islam.

2-  Why Quran-only sect is deviant.

I was planning on engaging these two discussions thoroughly.  Perhaps it'll happen soon.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Inshallah. If you find time, let me know.

As'salamu Alaikum brother,

Thanks for the post. But the sentence about evolution is disappointing to be heard from a Muslim.

No it is disappointing to not be heard from a Muslim especially a Muslim who follows the Quran.

(Quran 71:14)  God created you in diverse stages

What are those stages?
1.) Embryological
2.) Evolutionary

Embryological:
Quran 23:12-14, Many Muslims are familiar with this part.

The next part, many of those other Muslims are too stubborn to see (Unfortunately):


Evolutionary: Quran 32:7-9

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.

We grew from the Earth a progressive growth. Not an instantaneous growth from clay. Processes were involved!

(7)Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

Notice the word perfectedd. Allah perfected everything he created and BEGAN the creation of man. When Allah says he began the creation, that already means that steps were involved. What is amazing about this verse is that it relates to Allah perfecting/improving upon creation and the beginning of human creation from clay. This verse is hinting at a connection. A connection that human beings were made through a process of evolving better than the original creation thus human creation was perfected.

8 Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

Read the verse carefully. AFTER Allah began the creation of man from clay and started the process, Allah has developed sexual reproduction. Notice that this is before the final product (Adam).

(9) Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

Read this carefully too. After sexual reproduction (previous verse) Allah then further proportioned HIM (Adam) and breathed into him the soul and gave Adam higher intelligence.

That means that Adam was created through sexual reproduction...

These are the diverse stages Allah is referring to .


Another verse that shows Adam had parents:

(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance (Alaq or embryo).

Is Allah ever short of words? man is created from an embryo. Including Adam. That means that Adam had a father and a mother. Think about the evolutionary implicaiton.

Here is another one that shows Adam had parents:


So who is Adam? Adam is the one that Allah has chosen to succeed and has chosen us to be descended from (Quran 3:33)

One last important hint:

(Quran 64:3) He designed you then perfected your design.
(Quran 40:64) He formed you then perfected your design

Allah designed us, THEN made our designs good. Think of the evolutionary implication.

ONE MORE IMPORTANT HINT:

(QURAN 7:11)And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], THEN given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"


We were created in one form (early hominid), THEN given another form (human form), THEN Allah made the angels prostrate to Adam. Look at the sequence of events and the evolutionary implication.  We were created in a form, then given human form, Then Adam was created, then Allah made the angels prostrate to him. That means that the creation of Adam involved many diverse stages.


This is one of the Quran's biggest scientific consistency and it would defeat the atheists down to their necks. The Quran supported evolution and the creation of humans in stages long before Darwin. The Quran has highlighted that we were created from clay minerals (extract of clay).

Assalamualykum.


 ( He withholds the heaven from falling on the earth except by His Leave. Verily, Allah is, for mankind, Full of Kindness, Most Merciful)(Sûrat Al-Hajj- verse 65).
And WE have made the heaven a roof, well-protected, yet they turn away from its Signs.(21:32)

  And We have placed within the heaven great stars and have beautified it for the observers.(15:15)

 Okay I am little bit confuse in this issue of ''Heaven." Does it mean the Space or Atmosphere? If we look at the last verse where Allah says that the heaven is beautified with stars, here Heaven can't mean Atmosphere. And if heaven is the cosmos above then why Allah says in the first verse that He holds the heaven from falling on Earth? Because I don't think the Cosmos can ever fall on Earth. It will get crushed by the hit of one single planet or asteroid. But yes if Heaven=Atmosphere, then it's possible. Then the verse makes sense. If Allah lets go of the atmosphere, it will fall on earth with it's heavy weight.

 Again I'm confused whether the second verse is really speaking about our Atmosphere or the Cosmos. Because from the third verse we came to know that the Heaven is beautified with stars. So from this perspective Heaven can't be Atmosphere. Please help me with this brothers. My question might be a little bit unclear because i'm very much confused with this issue.

That's a really good question! I've been pondering this myself for quite a while.

Many people say that it could mean both, that the heaven can sometimes be translated as atmosphere and other times as the cosmos. In 15:16, Its clear the Quran means the cosmos.

I like to take a different, but valid route. "Heaven" just means "all that is above us". That means it encompasses BOTH the atmosphere and the cosmos.

So let's explain your verses in light of this:

( He withholds the heaven from falling on the earth except by His Leave. Verily, Allah is, for mankind, Full of Kindness, Most Merciful)(Sûrat Al-Hajj- verse 65)

Could the cosmos fall on the Earth? Yes. If the big crunch occurs, everything would be coming towards us and hence falling on the earth. Then we'd all die.
I also wanted to explain this in light of modern findings. In quantum mechanics, it is believed that nothing exists unless it is being observed (everything exists in a superposition) unless it is being observed. That means the only reason why the universe exists, is because God is observing it. If God stops observing it or allows the universe to change its form (making the cosmos fall on the earth), then this verse appears to be accurate. It makes clear that God is the sustainer of the world. If it is by his leave or permission, everything could cease to exist!

And WE have made the heaven a roof, well-protected, yet they turn away from its Signs.(21:32)

The Heaven seems to be compared to a roof in this verse. A roof is a protective covering, that protects us. In this verse it refers to the atmosphere (whatever is above the earth is protecting us), but it could also refer to the cosmos as the cosmos are also protecting us from itself. Jupiter for example. Jupiter is so massive that its gravitational influence deflects objects like comets, which, as they spiral toward the Sun, could potentially hit inner planets such as the Earth.Without Jupiter acting as a "cosmic vacuum cleaner" sucking up these dangerous objects, there would be so many catastrophic impacts that life probably wouldn't have evolved on the Earth and we wouldn't be here today. This is an example of how the cosmos protects us. It is a roof in a sense it is above us. And it is protecting us.